What is BLACK music? What is WHITE music?

Yes.

Can you press these distinctions very far without getting into some sticky shit?

Not usually.

Can boy sings blue the whites?

Yes.

"okay, here's how it works -- if it puts me to sleep, it's folk; if it's played by black guys, it's funk; and if i don't understand it, it's jazz."

It's mad to try to pick apart what types of music are either 'black' or 'white': facets of rap and soul (formerly in the 'black' camp) have been mixed with rock/pop/blah-blah (formerly in the 'white' camp) for ages (even if badly, ie, Limp Bizkit). The benefit nowadays is that facets of both are freely used to give exposure to the widest audience. Otherwise, you would also get into the old argument of who should listen to what.

Pretty damn funny.

A friend of mine told me once that Shellac were 'the whitest band in the world'.
I have no idea what that means.

On the 'worst review for you' thread it's been suggested that Radiohead's music has a lack of black influence.
Huh? Radiohead is (still) largely guitar based, and black people were huge players in popularising the guitar in popular music.

yeah the mind boggles!!! "huh?"!!

-- trife (...), September 19th, 2003.

Well I still have no idea what Shellac being 'white' means. I know the ppl in the band are white, but the music? That's a bunch of soundwaves.

By 'popularising the guitar' I was thinking of the early blues players, I'm fairly sure I'm right that they made it a mainstream popular music instrument in the 20th century.

The people in NE, NWA and Missy are black. But why call the music black?

Trife, by 'black music' do you just mean genres of music where over a certain percentage of the players are black? So, like, basketball is a 'black' sport?

I'm not arguing with you, I want to know something. If it's all so obvious please write me a simple one word definition of black music and the same of white music, thanks.

I don't live in America, perhaps that's the problem, I think maybe in the UK we're not so obsessed with race.

Isn't it more 'segregating music on culture grounds'? There is no black vs white dichotomy. Many other cultures have musics that are abscribed to them. Wait, ALL cultures have musics that are abscribed to them. What is the difference between labeling something as Japanesse or Indian or Gypsy? (not a rhetorical question) Is it because black culture and music is not tied to one particular landmass? When I think of black music, I think of music predominately developed within the communities of the descendants of slaves. It seems like to deny the existence of black music is to deny the existence of black culture.

(As a translation for Brits.)

(Perhaps simplistic, but then you'll get a sense of how fraught and [needlessly?] complicated it is.)

that's cause the man keeps them down

That makes more sense, you're saying black and white people have different cultures. (vast generalisation but fair enough)

I know it sounds really stupid but that hadn't really occurred to me.
I'd say that the few black ppl I know have, say, 80% the same culture as me.
That's probably because of where I live.

I now that Shellac are white and NWA are black, but their music?

Do people just mean that most artists in the same/similar genres are a certain colour?

i mean, are the motives for that so far beyond your grasp?? honestly, you can disagree with the constraints of the system all you want, whatever, but to say that you literally cannot comprehend why someone would think that, youre either being disingenuous or totally culturally ignorant
-- trife (...), September 19th, 2003.

I'm not complaining/disagreeing about any system, at most I'm complaining about some peoples use of silly language.
What are their motives? What are your motives? To group music made by black people together as one?
I feel I have more in common with PE (though very little) than I do with Coldplay.

literally cannot comprehend why someone would think that,
Would think what? That some music is black or white? I'm unclear about which 'that' we're talking about now.

I'm not being disingenuous but I probably am ignorant of a lot of culture.

Are you American? Nowadays in Britain class is a LOT less important day to day than Americans seem to think it is.

I'm not claiming England is a rascism free paradise, I can't compare it to America properly because I've never been to America which probably explains why I'm failing to really understand a lot of what's being said here.

I do think, from reading ILx, from newspapers and TV, that America is a lot more up tight about black Vs white stuff.

I don't think that's because England is such a great, friendly place or anything, but because there are few enough black people that they don't seem like a threat. Also there are Asians (mostly from India or Pakistan) and Eastern European immigrants for (white) idiots to pick on.

If you weren't as ignorant of Britain as I am of America you'd know that.

since you come from the racism-free black ppl's paradise of ENGLAND
-- trife (...), September 19th, 2003.

No I don't. I come from Wales. Wales was conquered/taken-over/invaded by England at some point - I don't know the exact ins and outs or if it was a military, political or by-invitation rout.

Although they're rarely referred to as such, Welsh people are effectively and mostly white ethnic minority living in Britain whose culture has at various points been deliberately weakened by the British government. At times in the last century Welsh children were punished severeley for even speaking their own language.

(I know that comes across like I'm a bitter, vitriolic welsh patriot or something but I'm not at all. I've just said all that as information.

I much prefer that I speak English to Welsh and though I'm proud to be Welsh I think it's the same sort of pride scousers have about liverpool or New Yorkers have about New York.
I'm not bitter that Wales doesn't rule itself, I don't think it should.)

no dave havent you heard!! britain is a classless paradise where nwa and radiohead just collaborated on 'ok compton'
-- trife (...), September 19th, 2003.

Have you ever lived here? How would you even tell what class someone is? Secret handshake? Money is a lot more important than class, isn't the US a bit like that?

(NWA split up years ago BTW, though I've heard Autechre and Dre have been laying down some beats)

Um, their job, their parents' wealth, their alma mater, etc. It doesn't give you a discount on a hamburger or something, but doesn't it give you greater chances to 'succeed' so that you don't need a discount? Don't need to throw your class status in people's faces because it's such an underlying thing?

Yeah, because the two are completely unrelated. Jobs just hand out random salaries depending on the mood their in on the day.

-- oops (don'temailmenicelad...), September 19th, 2003.

Most people's jobs aren't down to class.
Mostly where wealth determines class it is the defining factor ie someone is a certain class because of the money they have rather than vice versa.
I don't know what an alma mater is. I will look it up.

It doesn't give you a discount on a hamburger or something, but doesn't it give you greater chances to 'succeed' so that you don't need a discount? Don't need to throw your class status in people's faces because it's such an underlying thing?
-- oops (don'temailmenicelad...), September 19th, 2003.

Yes, being upper class does make you more likely to become the chairman of British Gas, but enough money would give you a similar chance. Being lower class makes you more likely to be a pro footballer.

Most people it doesn't determine their jobs/status.

I think what I've said is true.

I know just ignoring it doesn't make the issue go away, but since so much of "class issues" is simply over-thinking and psyching yourself out, it might help. Just a suggestion.

You are soooo right.

People are now back to discussing 'black' music again and still no one has definitively said what it is!

that was in my first post to this thread. I don't think it's a perfect definition, so if you disagree with it or think something needs to be added to it, I'm all ears. (eyes?)

peace

-- nickalicious (nza2342...), September 23rd, 2003.

Which means blues, rock and roll and hip hop aren't black, cause they come froom the USA where black people are a minority?

-- trife (...), September 19th, 2003 4:20 AM. (simon_tr) (link)

several years on this is still the most amusing thing i have ever read on ilx