Burzum is a special case, where you just can't separate the band/project from the asshole. Weird.
I'd argue that there are probably two separate issues. One is the music, which boils down to individual conscience, the other is the t-shirt which, to some degree, might not. Someone wandering around listening to Burzum or Skr3wdriv3r on their iPod makes zero impact on the people they come into contact with, someone wandering around flashing a sign that they <3 those bands might not. If someone who isn't white walks into a bar and sees a bunch of guys in Burzum / Skr3wdriv3r t-shirts in there, or walks down a dimly-lit street and sees a dude in a Burzum / Skr3wdriv3r t-shirt coming towards them and is made to feel uncomfortable, or even threatened by that, it stops being all about the dude in the t-shirt.
― Temporarily Famous In The Czech Republic (ShariVari), Thursday, 16 August 2012 05:52 (twelve years ago) link
I thought nobody actually listened to Skr3wdriv3r except actual racists because Skr3wdriv3r's music is hideously incompetent drivel
― Gurdas Mane (crüt), Thursday, 16 August 2012 07:31 (twelve years ago) link
There are certainly some people who don't see themselves as racist who like the earlier work.
― Temporarily Famous In The Czech Republic (ShariVari), Thursday, 16 August 2012 07:35 (twelve years ago) link
But Mayhem's Ordo ad Chao seems leagues better than literally anything Burzum's ever done.
I also find it somewhat disingenuous to make no artistic/moral distinction between Burzum and Skrewdr1ver, in the same way there's a difference between a Polanski film and actual kiddi3 pr0n. That said, walking around in a Burzum shirt *is* making a statement.
― Siegbran, Thursday, 16 August 2012 08:49 (twelve years ago) link
i'm skeptical of anyone who claims to like burzum and not be at least partially interested in the varg spectacle. also, it's natural human behavior to be titillated by crazy dudes burning down churches. u don't have to approve of an accident to want to rubberneck
― Mordy, Thursday, August 16, 2012 12:27 AM (7 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
I'd never claim not to be interested in it; it's a pretty riveting story. Don't know if I'd go so far as to say "titillated", and I didn't check out Burzum *because* of the gory stuff surroudning him. I'd heard enough compelling stuff about his music from people I trust, and in fact in some other thread contenderizier mentioned I should probably check out some of his stuff since I was digging on Transilvanian Hunger so much!
I would probably never wear a Burzum t-shirt, though. Unless it just said "HØHHH" on the front and "WAUH!" on the back.
― Clarke B., Thursday, 16 August 2012 12:24 (twelve years ago) link
Ordo Ad Chao is a great and very underrated record, but that's just challops - I mean even if you're not really into the repetitiveness, consider the influence it's had on pretty much everyone that came after.
I seriously think Varg has a almost completely tin ear when it comes to atmosphere. He gets in some good riffs, nobody can deny that. You're right about the influence obviously, but mark s liberated me from placing too much weight on influence. Ordo stands with monuments of the genre as far as atmosphere & effect & album continuity imo, it's nearly flawless.
― steven fucking tyler (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Thursday, 16 August 2012 12:41 (twelve years ago) link
Oh man, I actually think he has a knack for atmosphere... "Tomhet" and "Rundgang der blah blah" being obvious examples, but, like, "Naar Himmeln Klarner"! He gets a lot done in the atmosphere department with very few ingredients. Have you listened to "Jesu Dod" or "Dunkelheit" on a decent setup? There are so many little micro-riffs and layers in there to unpack; I feel like I hear a new flourish every time I listen to those songs. I suppose that sort of complexity isn't at all synonymous with atmosphere but if you're gonna object to the word "influence" mark s-style then I'm not sure how much weight you should afford the word "atmosphere"...
― Clarke B., Thursday, 16 August 2012 12:53 (twelve years ago) link
Ordo stands with monuments of the genre as far as atmosphere & effect & album continuity imo, it's nearly flawless.
― Siegbran, Thursday, 16 August 2012 13:59 (twelve years ago) link
Tons of ppl stump for all skrewed up the ”pre racist” skrewdriver album
I think theres something gross about white dudes walking around with burzum shirts and not considering the message that could send to ppl for whom racism is more than some internet circle jerk debate club topic
― Jandek at the Disco (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 16 August 2012 14:17 (twelve years ago) link
Fair enough, but how many of those ppl really see a Burzum shirt as anything else but just another black t-shirt with a band logo in Olde English font?
― Siegbran, Thursday, 16 August 2012 14:22 (twelve years ago) link
How many is not relevant
― Jandek at the Disco (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 16 August 2012 14:25 (twelve years ago) link
99.9999% of people you see when wearing a burzum shirt will have no idea who they are, neither will they care.
― Blue Collar Retail Assistant (Dwight Yorke), Thursday, 16 August 2012 14:31 (twelve years ago) link
Several people have said that in this thread... Really? The idea that people would buy a shirt with a word on it and not know what the word meant is very odd to me.
― Clarke B., Thursday, 16 August 2012 14:33 (twelve years ago) link
People do things all the time that they don't understand because it's cool on the surface. Same with Burzum ... underground music with a touch of Charles Manson and outsider art. I can understand why art school types would like it, Burzum might just be this decade's Joy Division t-shirt.
― Spectrum, Thursday, 16 August 2012 14:36 (twelve years ago) link
If you can't see how the possibility of giving someone the implicit message that you are cool with racism &nazism should outweigh your own ”need” to wear a burzum shirt, and you're older than like 16, I don't know what to say
― Jandek at the Disco (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 16 August 2012 14:37 (twelve years ago) link
― Blue Collar Retail Assistant (Dwight Yorke), Thursday, August 16, 2012 10:31 AM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― Clarke B., Thursday, August 16, 2012 10:33 AM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark
pretty sure he meant most of the people that SEE a burzum shirt know who the band is, not most of the people who WEAR a burzum shirt. i'm still kind of puzzled by aero's implication that most of the people who wear burzum shirts haven't listened to burzum albums, which if true is bizarre.
― some dude, Thursday, 16 August 2012 14:41 (twelve years ago) link
0 - knows no Burzum1 - "somebody in the NBM scene is a murderer"2 - has listened to Jesu Dod on Youtube3 - owns and wears a Burzum t-shirt4 - can spell Count Grishnackh without checking5 - Filosofem on the Winamp6 - owns all albums, has met Necrobutcher but had the decency not to ask7 - "I will subscribe to your newsletter"8 - ???
― Ówen P., Thursday, 16 August 2012 14:47 (twelve years ago) link
profit, i think
― goole, Thursday, 16 August 2012 14:49 (twelve years ago) link
x-post to some dude:
Ah, you're right; I didn't notice the "when" in "see when wearing"... That's kind of an interesting point, actually. I would guess that people tend to wear Burzum shirts more as a wink to other people "in the know"--they fully acknowledge that 99.999% of people they pass won't know what their shirt means, and that the ones that do probably won't come up and punch them for being a racist. Wouldn't be quite the same thing to wear a Charles Manson t-shirt.
― Clarke B., Thursday, 16 August 2012 14:52 (twelve years ago) link
Isn't half this sad chump's music super boring Fischer Price My First Dead Can Dance Album (tm) bullshit anyway?
― Jandek at the Disco (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 16 August 2012 14:53 (twelve years ago) link
8 - signed original pressing of Daudi Baldrs
― Clarke B., Thursday, 16 August 2012 14:53 (twelve years ago) link
xp yeah (8)should be "will defend the music on the prison albums"
― it's-a me, irl (DJ Mencap), Thursday, 16 August 2012 15:12 (twelve years ago) link
-1 - wears the shirt because Burzum's a word from Lord Of The Rings and the letters are maybe Elvish
― StanM, Thursday, 16 August 2012 15:25 (twelve years ago) link
9 - owns all his books10 - has read them
― Siegbran, Thursday, 16 August 2012 15:38 (twelve years ago) link
lolllll
― steven fucking tyler (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Thursday, 16 August 2012 15:39 (twelve years ago) link
and that the ones that do probably won't come up and punch them for being a racist. Wouldn't be quite the same thing to wear a Charles Manson t-shirt.
― Siegbran, Thursday, 16 August 2012 15:46 (twelve years ago) link
People do things all the time that they don't understand because it's cool on the surface.
yeah but once you're older than 16 surely you see that this is a really stupid thing to do
― lex pretend, Thursday, 16 August 2012 15:47 (twelve years ago) link
Agreed. I wore Burzum and Death in June t-shirts in high school, and it struck me that it may not be a cool thing to do ... I imagined if a Jewish friend or something happened to know the death's head symbol or knew what Burzum was about would see it and feel weird, and bottom line didn't like the idea of fronting for the ideas those things represented. Made me feel pretty guilty so never wore them again.
― Spectrum, Thursday, 16 August 2012 15:57 (twelve years ago) link
I'm not a Burzum fan but yeah one of the very best things about being a metal classical and film score geek is not needing to stress about what's corny
OTM
― Lewis Apparition (Jon Lewis), Thursday, 16 August 2012 15:58 (twelve years ago) link
You don't need to support Burzum or DiJ shirts if you want to walk around with a Totenkopf on yr chest, just go to Wal-Mart.
― Siegbran, Thursday, 16 August 2012 16:11 (twelve years ago) link
good old Wal-Mart
― Lil Swayne of Pie (DJP), Thursday, 16 August 2012 16:12 (twelve years ago) link
Yeah but I'm sure that's just post addiction graphic design, gone cluelessly awry
― Jandek at the Disco (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 16 August 2012 16:28 (twelve years ago) link
Affliction
fretting over how cool your metal music is represents, more than any sun(((o album, the pernicious influence of the hipster (and his associated aesthetic cliches)
― Mordy, Thursday, 16 August 2012 16:32 (twelve years ago) link
whatever, man, your lame metallica patch on that jacket sucks, why don't you listen to real metal like megadeth!
― your native bacon (mh), Thursday, 16 August 2012 16:43 (twelve years ago) link
DJP, not that this should in any way redeem him in your eyes, but I thought you should know that he does have a song in his catalog called "The Crying Orc."
― Clarke B., Thursday, 16 August 2012 16:50 (twelve years ago) link
just to clarify, did someone up thread basically go for the idea that wearing a burzum shirt is equivalent to wearing a skr3wdr1v3r shirt? because thats bullshit
― O_o-O_O-o_O (jjjusten), Thursday, 16 August 2012 16:55 (twelve years ago) link
skr3wdr1v3r t-shirt = fair chance that people who are familiar with the band are going to think you're a racist
Burzum t-shirt = fair chance that people who are familiar with the band are going to think you're a racist
Not particularly interested in whether one is "worse" than the other, more in whether someone from a minority group who sees you in the shirt is going to feel uncomfortable with it.
― Temporarily Famous In The Czech Republic (ShariVari), Thursday, 16 August 2012 17:04 (twelve years ago) link
let me fix that for you
skr3wdr1v3r t-shirt = fair chance that people who are familiar with the band are going to think know you're a racist
― O_o-O_O-o_O (jjjusten), Thursday, 16 August 2012 17:17 (twelve years ago) link
I can't lie; I would probably wear a shirt with this thread title on it
― Clarke B., Thursday, 16 August 2012 17:18 (twelve years ago) link
xp, So all we're really arguing about is the degree of certainty, not that you're going to be running a significant risk of making people from groups that have traditionally been the victims of racism think you might be a neo-Nazi?
― Temporarily Famous In The Czech Republic (ShariVari), Thursday, 16 August 2012 17:21 (twelve years ago) link
I would think that neo-Nazis who just wanted to vibe out on some good haterock would not necessarily flock to Burzum just because he's a racist, since his lyrics are about forests and stuff.
― Clarke B., Thursday, 16 August 2012 17:29 (twelve years ago) link
They did when I was into metal ... the official Burzum mailing list was full of that crap, and white power dudes would message me on IRC about their groups when I'd talk about the band. Then it was hard to be into Burzum without encountering the neo-Nazi side of it. Could be different now, I have no idea. I was primarily into the forests and vibes of the music, but got out pretty quickly when I saw that part of it.
― Spectrum, Thursday, 16 August 2012 17:33 (twelve years ago) link
Ick... Yeah, I think I'll stick to the nosebleed seats of somewhat ethically tortured Burzum fandom.
― Clarke B., Thursday, 16 August 2012 17:43 (twelve years ago) link
― Clarke B., Thursday, August 16, 2012 1:18 PM (25 minutes ago) Bookmark
it would have an arrow pointing straight down, right?
― some dude, Thursday, 16 August 2012 17:44 (twelve years ago) link
lol @ "neo-Nazis who just wanted to vibe out on some good haterock"
― some dude, Thursday, 16 August 2012 17:45 (twelve years ago) link
xp, So all we're really arguing about is the degree of certainty, not that you're going to be running a significant risk of making people from groups that have traditionally been the victims of racism think you might be a neo-Nazi?― Temporarily Famous In The Czech Republic (ShariVari), Thursday, August 16, 2012 5:21 PM (37 minutes ago)
― Temporarily Famous In The Czech Republic (ShariVari), Thursday, August 16, 2012 5:21 PM (37 minutes ago)
nah what i am saying is that one is a just a str8 up obvious racist band with indisputable racist lyrics, and the other is a dude making non-race related music that we know is a murdering racist asshole. theres a valid distinction there - if i see a dude with a swastika shirt, i know whats going on with him for sure, but if he is wearing a custom #88 sports jersey i dont.
― O_o-O_O-o_O (jjjusten), Thursday, 16 August 2012 18:02 (twelve years ago) link
― some dude, Thursday, August 16, 2012 1:44 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
That would be the only shirt in existence to pull off the elusive neo-Nazi-undertone / dick-joke combo
― Clarke B., Thursday, 16 August 2012 18:03 (twelve years ago) link
that sounds like a wager to me
― it's-a me, irl (DJ Mencap), Thursday, 16 August 2012 18:16 (twelve years ago) link
xxp, to me, and to a lot of other people, they're both str8 up racist bands. Far more people are aware of the racism than the music if they're familiar with the Burzum name at all. There's certainly a strong possibility that the wearer isn't racist but there's also a fairly legitimate implication that they might be. If i get on a night bus and the only two free seats are next to a guy in a Burzum shirt and a guy in a shirt that has 88 on the back, i'm probably going to choose the one that could be a completely unintentional association.
Wearing a Burzum shirt sends a message out. That message isn't necessarily going to be interpreted in the way the wearer intends. I can't see why anyone would even want to take the risk of making people who aren't white self-conscious or uncomfortable in their presence simply to rep a band they like.
― Temporarily Famous In The Czech Republic (ShariVari), Thursday, 16 August 2012 18:17 (twelve years ago) link