It will sit just fine on her greatest hits vol. 1, whenever that will appear.
it will for sure!
but still. it seems like billboard's decision when it comes to whether a song counts as part of a certain genre is based on whether the artist has recorded songs of that genre before. i'm not so naïve that i'll pretend that who the performer is never has anything to do with how music is classified, but it seems to me that "genre" really has to do with a certain set of slowly evolving aesthetic qualities, lyrical themes and so forth that are collectively valued by distinct audiences. and yes, while many of the people in these audiences are "purists," i don't think these charts should just ignore them. "we are never ever getting back together" and "i knew you were trouble" were both somewhat jarring and alienating to the people who listen exclusively to country music -- the songs' performance on country stations will certainly reflect that, but this week "we are never..." is the #1 and "i knew you were trouble" certainly will be next week after the absolutely monstrous sales it's getting right now.
man i don't know, it's just so boring that the r&b songs chart is going to be "list of songs on the hot 100 that are recorded by artists generally maybe considered part of the r&b genre in the exact order that they appear on the hot 100"
― teledyldonix, Saturday, 13 October 2012 04:51 (eleven years ago) link
the megastars idea is interesting -- the bill werde tumblr post says that the genre charts never before showed the level of dominance that the pop charts occasionally did (w/ the beatles and bee gees and so on). but that's not really true -- the r&b charts reasonably often would have several of its top slots commanded by certain huge artists (recently drake in particular)
― teledyldonix, Saturday, 13 October 2012 06:09 (eleven years ago) link
anyway i am not holding my breath but it's not completely unprecedented that billboard cancels certain chart experiments; they shut down the "pop 100" after only 4 years (and what a shady chart that was, seriously -- like, by all appearances the formula may have been "take hot 100 data for the week then subtract several chart points from everyone who isn't white")
― teledyldonix, Saturday, 13 October 2012 06:11 (eleven years ago) link
The R&B chart was shut down in 1963 back when artists like Elvis and the Beach Boys were scoring R&B hits, and then it was reinstated in 1965 at which point black music seemed to get funkier. It also seems rock music got whiter from that moment on, never again to converge with R&B as it seemed to be doing around 1963. Of course, in the mid-1960s you still had a lot of black-oriented record shops and radio stations, so it wasn't so easy to kill the concept of R&B; the framework of it was too strong - as opposed to the more perilous situation today. But I suspect that this older episode and the one we're talking about now just have to do with Billboard attempting to make the music-selling business more streamlined and efficient, damn the consequences.
― Josefa, Saturday, 13 October 2012 07:21 (eleven years ago) link
unless "Diamonds" tops the Hot 100 (which i doubt it will) there probably won't be any room for it on her greatest hits!
― some dude, Saturday, 13 October 2012 22:58 (eleven years ago) link
Great thread. This may have already been noted upthread, but one of the things that makes me uneasy about the new methodology for the genre charts is that, instead of determining a song's genre by which radio formats play it, Billboard itself is now making judgment calls. Chart director Silvio Pietroluongo has said, "Determinations on genre are decided based on the sonic make-up of the song." Which just seems like a can of worms.
― Sandy Denny Real Estate (jaymc), Sunday, 14 October 2012 14:48 (eleven years ago) link
plus they're very clearly often making these decisions on something other than the sonic make-up of the song (like who the artist is, what their previous songs have sounded like, their skin color, etc.)
― some dude, Sunday, 14 October 2012 15:03 (eleven years ago) link
yeah the general impression that the majors' strategy here is to consolidate their promotion into an even smaller number of artists is otm, in part because the staffs at majors have all gotten smaller, and in part because the long tail of pop music matters less when that audience is so much more likely to pirate. my guess is that this will mean not only a different (prob less interesting) range of artists being played on hip hop stations, but also a smaller one, as though that were fucking possible.
― een, Sunday, 14 October 2012 16:01 (eleven years ago) link
i think the emerging importance of asian markets also has something to do with this. prob needless to say that labels think hot 100 topping artists have a much better chance of selling in asia than r&b and hip hop specifics, so it's another reason for majors to care less about development and promotion of artists relatively on the fringe. this in turn puts pressure on billboard to adopt a methodology aims for the same level of consolidation.
― een, Sunday, 14 October 2012 16:15 (eleven years ago) link
^^^great point
― The rain in Spin circles mainly on the mansplain (D-40), Sunday, 14 October 2012 20:06 (eleven years ago) link
I can't really give you any actual *reasons* or *facts* to back up my opinion but I really feel that Drake destroyed hip hop musically & culturally, and it just feels true to me
― rap game klaus nomi (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Sunday, 14 October 2012 20:29 (eleven years ago) link
otm
― fanute da croupier (D-40), Sunday, 14 October 2012 20:30 (eleven years ago) link
if you think drake destroyed hip hop musically & culturally that actually means you think that lil wayne destroyed hip hop musically & culturally (and i won't argue w/ you)
― lil dirk (J0rdan S.), Sunday, 14 October 2012 20:32 (eleven years ago) link
*otm
― fanute da croupier (D-40), Sunday, 14 October 2012 21:18 (eleven years ago) link
eh, even as much as Lil Wayne has jumped the shark and I dislike Drake, I don't really agree with either of those things
― Cap'n Hug-a-Thug (The Reverend), Sunday, 14 October 2012 21:43 (eleven years ago) link
Not sure what yr rationale is for saying Drake destroyed hip hop musically and culturally, but what about Black Eyed Peas? Or Flo Rida?
― this is the dream of avril and chad (jer.fairall), Sunday, 14 October 2012 21:48 (eleven years ago) link
Or perhaps nothing is destroyed? Nothing is ruined? The world won't end? We just get slightly suckier hit lists?
― Gelados n cream (longneck), Monday, 15 October 2012 10:31 (eleven years ago) link
@theilliterate I didn't say that though- "increasingly". I'm of the opinion that itunes inadvertently destroyed Black American pop music tho
@theilliterate And the start of that dates back to around 2005
@GracieLoPan @theilliterate lol. the problem was that the audience for black music was less likely to purchase itunes & the market adjusted
Itunes destroyed Black American pop music.
i hate to get all reactionary/reductionist, but i've always wondered what the hell happened the so completely freakin awesome rap/r&b scene of the early thousands, seemingly overnight, and this makes a certain amount of sense.
― messiahwannabe, Monday, 15 October 2012 12:18 (eleven years ago) link
http://tasteofcountry.com/billboard-chart-changes/
I wonder how this petition drive by country fans opposed to the changes is going?
― curmudgeon, Tuesday, 16 October 2012 19:27 (eleven years ago) link
i dunno but it wouldn't surprise me if it gets more momentum than any other response to this, country fans/industry definitely seem to care more about the singles charts than rock/urban/latin/etc.
― some dude, Tuesday, 16 October 2012 19:30 (eleven years ago) link
Have not seen followup alt-weekly, magazine, or blogposts re the r'n'b change (just ones froma few days ago announcing the change)
― curmudgeon, Wednesday, 17 October 2012 14:35 (eleven years ago) link
you realize alt weeklies and magazines generally need more than 6 days to react to news right?
― some dude, Wednesday, 17 October 2012 14:44 (eleven years ago) link
Yes, I mean that some post stuff on their own blogs sooner. Chicago Reader just had something about Mumford & Sons itunes and Billboard success.
― curmudgeon, Wednesday, 17 October 2012 14:48 (eleven years ago) link
billboard reports:
Due to its pure pop, even dubstep-leaning, sound, "Trouble" does not appear on the newly-revamped Country Songs chart, which, as of last week, now blends airplay, sales and streaming data; it's also not being promoted to country radio. "Never" spends a second week atop the tally
so their main criterion seems to be whether it's promoted to that radio format?? at least that is what i'm figuring because i don't see how "we are never" is any less 'pure pop'
― teledyldonix, Thursday, 18 October 2012 05:24 (eleven years ago) link
well there's a country mix are "We Are Never" that was sent to country radio -- it was a moderate country radio hit before the chart changes. i wonder if this means not all Rihanna singles will be on the R&B chart, because the overtly dancey stuff like "We Found Love" generally isn't promoted to urban radio -- although to me "Diamonds" doesn't seem to have significantly more appeal there, aside from being midtempo.
the Mumford & Sons album has been out for 3 weeks btw
― some dude, Thursday, 18 October 2012 10:45 (eleven years ago) link
published my first rant on the topic: http://www.splicetoday.com/music/meet-the-new-charts-worse-than-the-old-charts
― some dude, Thursday, 18 October 2012 18:00 (eleven years ago) link
that was great al, good work
― i dox in yellow gox dox socks (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 18 October 2012 18:43 (eleven years ago) link
Seriously. Great piece, cuts right to the heart of the problems.
― EZ Snappin, Thursday, 18 October 2012 18:43 (eleven years ago) link
great article! i think there's a story yet to be told about who benefits, and what those ppl did in order to get thid change in place
― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Thursday, 18 October 2012 19:21 (eleven years ago) link
thiS
Agreed, and you wagged a finger at Billboard editor without losing your cool.
― the ones that I'm near most: fellow outcasts and ilxors (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 18 October 2012 19:23 (eleven years ago) link
wagging a finger without losing his cool is really the essence of al ship
― lil dirk (J0rdan S.), Thursday, 18 October 2012 19:29 (eleven years ago) link
ha ha
Well done btw.
― Gelados n cream (longneck), Thursday, 18 October 2012 19:37 (eleven years ago) link
billboard should just get rid of every chart except the hot 100
― 乒乓, Thursday, 18 October 2012 21:25 (eleven years ago) link
is billboard 'too big to fail'? should billboard be nationalized for the benefit of the public?
thanks y'all
tagged werde on twitter, not thrilled w/ his response but i didn't expect much anyway, i just wanted to be heard
Bill Werde @bwerde @alshipley I respectfully disagree w much of your logic. But I've also addressed virtually every point already on twitter.
Bill Werde @bwerde @alshipley I'll add: you say "listeners" decided genre in old way. Not true. Only radio did. Now listeners do, via iTunes, Spotify etc.
― some dude, Thursday, 18 October 2012 22:55 (eleven years ago) link
And did he address said points or is he blowing smoke?
― Ned Raggett, Thursday, 18 October 2012 22:57 (eleven years ago) link
that's pointedly ignoring the fact that itunes and spotify have certain demographics and userbases that mean their results are skewed in important ways
― i dox in yellow gox dox socks (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 18 October 2012 22:57 (eleven years ago) link
some dude vs old dude
― the ones that I'm near most: fellow outcasts and ilxors (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 18 October 2012 22:59 (eleven years ago) link
from his picture i imagine he's maybe around my age or not a whole lot older
my piece was finished a few days ago so there ARE some things he's said to other people since then that address my points. am prob going to direct some specific questions to him on twitter tonight or tomorrow, will probably bring up m@tt's point and if anyone else has anything they'd like addressed
― some dude, Thursday, 18 October 2012 23:21 (eleven years ago) link
It seems he has not addressed the difference between itunes demographics and r'n'b/rap radio demographics
― curmudgeon, Friday, 19 October 2012 05:17 (eleven years ago) link
Would it be possible to think noz's pitchfork piece in conjunction with this? http://pitchfork.com/features/hall-of-game/8969-record-sales-and-digital-scales/
I've got to admit that I find it a bit more problematic than shipley's piece though.
― Gelados n cream (longneck), Friday, 19 October 2012 08:35 (eleven years ago) link
Macklemore & Ryan Lewis are in the r&b top 5.
― Cap'n Hug-a-Thug (The Reverend), Friday, 19 October 2012 09:51 (eleven years ago) link
errr top 25, it ain't that bad.
but still, goddamn
― Cap'n Hug-a-Thug (The Reverend), Friday, 19 October 2012 09:53 (eleven years ago) link
can somebody explain the relationship between the genre charts and radio playlists? cause i feel like there's something crucial i'm still not understanding. like, if a genre chart gets swamped by crossover/pop megastars, what's the impact on, say, the playlist of a radio station that specializes in that genre? why does it have to have any impact at all?
― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Friday, 19 October 2012 10:03 (eleven years ago) link
I haven't seen anyone arguing that radio playlists are going to change as a result of the new chart methodology, but I suppose if stations are using Billboard charts as a tool to tell them what's hot in their genre then those charts could have an impact.
― Binders Full of Mittens (President Keyes), Friday, 19 October 2012 10:46 (eleven years ago) link
well, given that the change is a week old, it's hard to say what the long term effect will be on radio, if any. my fear is that a lot more stations will start to sound like the one awkwardly straddling urban and pop playlists in D.C. that i described upthread: Itunes, Billboard, and the marginalization of black music and black audiences in America
― some dude, Friday, 19 October 2012 10:48 (eleven years ago) link
Some of Werde's tweets seemed to imply that he does not recognize, as was noted upthread, that r'n'b/rap radio stations receive calls and communication from their listeners; and that simply dismissing the old way as "radio" dictating, is not fully accurate. He also does not get into how itunes and spotify listeners make their selections.
― curmudgeon, Friday, 19 October 2012 14:49 (eleven years ago) link
http://www.spin.com/blogs/how-did-psys-gangnam-style-become-the-no-1-rap-song-in-the-country
― curmudgeon, Friday, 26 October 2012 13:59 (eleven years ago) link