"Uh Huh Her." Thoughts on the new PJ Harvey?

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Hmm. Maybe:

raw = sounds different to how it would if you spent more time on it

back to bacsics = go back to doing things the way you used to

mei (mei), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 20:35 (nineteen years ago) link

Re: Dylan.

It hardly proves the line doesn't exist or isn't important, though, does it? I think it comes into the category of 'Rawk doing a Houdini escape act from its own contradictions'. When we think 'Bob Dylan', some of us still think of that moment where he 'goes electric', in other words makes the transition from one claim to authenticity (folk) to a rival claim (rock). (Note: he doesn't abandon authenticity itself, he just switches modes. Mark E. Smith is, I'd say, a different case. His authenticity is, he thinks, a birthright, and derived from being a 'prole'. It's extra-musical. Nothing he can do musically can ever be inauthentic as a result. Drum machines, art gestures, poetry, it's all within his credit limit, his class credibility karma.)

Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 20:38 (nineteen years ago) link

The line exits and is imporatnt, but what's really important is not to take sides as you propose, but rather to unite the two poles. This is capital A Art. Dylan and MES make direct observations of things both mundane/realistic and transcendental/visionary, in lyric and music.

sexyDancer, Tuesday, 15 June 2004 20:43 (nineteen years ago) link

It's not so much a question of taking sides, as of saying that it's impossible to explain why an artist makes certain gestures (and often with an almost neurotic insistence and repetitiveness) without referring to their perception of themselves in relation to 'the authentic'. The Authentic is to rock music what Legitimacy is to politics. If you're on the wrong side of Legitimacy, your days are numbered. You look small, silly, weak, fake. (Now, as it happens I've based my whole career on looking deliberately small, silly, weak and fake -- on trying to prove that it's actually more 'authentic' to thumb your nose at authenticity than to play by its rules, in somewhat the same way that it's more macho to be a man out on the streets dressed in drag than a man in jeans and leather. Ask Grayson Perry!)

Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 20:52 (nineteen years ago) link

I'm sure Dylan was doing something similar with his recent blond wig and fake beard get-up. Note that the longest-living rock acts are constantly changing styles and challenging their audiences.

sexyDancer, Tuesday, 15 June 2004 21:03 (nineteen years ago) link

When you say 'an artist', do you mean a specific artist (PJ Harvey?) or all artists?

mei (mei), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 21:04 (nineteen years ago) link

No they're not!

The Rolling Stones, Aerosmith, AC/DC, REM, Status Quo...

mei (mei), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 21:06 (nineteen years ago) link

oops! I meant to say long-running acts with regard to necessary records: Bowie, Boredoms, etc.

sexyDancer, Tuesday, 15 June 2004 21:10 (nineteen years ago) link

Rock longevity: don't change a thing!
Pop longevity: change all the time!

Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 21:11 (nineteen years ago) link

ach! There you go with those dualities again! Smash 'em. Always different, always the same... that's how I want it!
But let's get back to Bo Diddley, shall we?

sexyDancer, Tuesday, 15 June 2004 21:14 (nineteen years ago) link

(Complicates duality with paradoxical qualification -- knowing full well that this will be seen nothing more than prevarication, vacillation or weakness rather than what it is, dialectics):

...But since rock is a sub-division of pop, the Houdini-like thing rock has to do is change all the time, but make it look like you're staying the same (the Stones, who change more from decade to decade than people realise). Or to change all the time, but emphasise that it's because you're chasing the avant garde essence of rock, its original spirit of rebellion and innovation, which is merely to be found, each year, in a slightly different place (Bowie etc). But mainly, rock abjures change (Status Quo, Oasis) and is quite happy to be a sort of museum piece like the classical orchestral repertoire of dead masters.

Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 21:20 (nineteen years ago) link

http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/drc300/c370/c370395uu42.jpg

sexyDancer, Tuesday, 15 June 2004 21:24 (nineteen years ago) link

By the way, I have a slightly odd question. Is there a difference in the way PJ Harvey and JK Rowling use initials?

Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 21:26 (nineteen years ago) link

classic SE Hinton duck

sexyDancer, Tuesday, 15 June 2004 21:28 (nineteen years ago) link

(If you'll allow me to answer my own question, my feeling is, yes, there is a difference. Sure, both are women using a trope usually associated with men. But there the similarities end. I think JK Rowling is referring back to JRR Tolkien, whereas PJ Harvey's reference is closer to JR Ewing. In other words, Rowling is trying to evoke a tradition of rather stuffy British authors, whereas Harvey is evoking American legends like WC Handy. Rowling has some anti-American feelings -- she vehemently refused to allow Harry Potter to be played by an American actor, for instance -- whereas I can imagine Harvey ending up an American citizen, completely 'naturalised', and speaking with the accent in which she currently sings. And I think this has a lot to do with her perception that a step towards America is a step towards authenticity, even if, for her as a British person, it's in some ways the opposite: a step towards the plastic. You could extend this and say that every step she takes towards Rock music makes her more of a Pop artist.)

Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 21:35 (nineteen years ago) link

Momus,
Again, I find myself nodding in agreement (and I hope your notes on the diffusion of divinity in Japanese culture don't go overlooked amid all the guitar- and penis-swinging of this thread) but you still don't seem to be able to disentangle yourself from Rawk's most superficial and facile symbolism. Sure, it's in the revisionist stage -- much like all Western narrative (let's do the same thing but with a dog!) or human sexuality (let's do the same thing but with a dog!). Yet it's entirely in one's power to refuse to see PJH (whom I like but don't revere) as Rosie the Riveter with a compressor pedal; let the journalists do that. Hell, let herself do that. It doesn't change the fact that, say, "The Letter" has a very clever chord progression or that "I Can Hardly Wait" has an interesting dropped beat, etc.

Regarding her ambiguous Britishness: I got a kick out of the album's liner-note inscription saying "British accent, goddamn it!". Brilliant, in a way: you can read it as a self-reminder to get rid of the accent or to keep it.

joseph cotten (joseph cotten), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 22:49 (nineteen years ago) link

i don't understand where all these aggressively simplified dichotomies get us.

amateur!st (amateurist), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 23:13 (nineteen years ago) link

JK Rowling wasn't anti-American in her casting of Harry Potter; she wanted an English actor playing an explicitly English character, rather than an American kid doing an accent. I suppose she was discriminatory in not hiring PJ Harvey to play him...

Layna Andersen (Layna Andersen), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 23:37 (nineteen years ago) link

Rock longevity: don't change a thing!
Pop longevity: change all the time!
-- Momus (nic...), June 15th, 2004.

Now you're being facetious!

Counteraxample: Madonna.

She's one of the longest running and most successful pop acts yet she's remained virtually constant over the years: all her songs are about love, sex and kooky spirituality set to an easy-on-the-ear chart-style 4/4 backing.

mei (mei), Wednesday, 16 June 2004 06:35 (nineteen years ago) link

Also, Cliff Richard is pop isn't he? And David Bowie rock?

mei (mei), Wednesday, 16 June 2004 06:37 (nineteen years ago) link

On her first album PJ occasionally has an obviously English bumpkin accent.

mei (mei), Wednesday, 16 June 2004 06:44 (nineteen years ago) link

Another 'aggressively simplified dichotomy' just occurred to me. The 'I' in a pop song is quite different from the 'I' in a rock song, because pop and rock have different origins. Pop music comes from variety-vaudeville-music hall (in France it's still called Varietee) whereas rock comes from the Blues. Now, these are quite different traditions. In variety a performer comes out on stage in role, in costume. He's an actor playing a character, usually for laughs. The 'I' in a variety song might as well be 'he'. It refers to a stereotype, a creation, a caricature, a funny freak. The literary mode is theatrical, and comic. In the blues, the literary mode is autobiographical, and tragic. The form gets its power from our belief that the person singing 'I woke up this morning' is telling us something 'real' about his suffering. He is the person he says he is, and has really gone through the things he's singing about. We are moved. His 'I' is not 'he' but I. Instead of wearing make-up and costume, the blues performer gives us the impression of stripping away all artifice and showing us his soul. It would be absurd to say to a pop-variety performer 'You're not really Sgt. Pepper! You haven't lived that!' But it would be quite relevant to say to a blues-rock performer 'You didn't wake up this morning to find yourself a homeless drifter abandoned by your woman, in fact you probably had a meeting with your masseuse and then your accountant!' Blues-rock is open to charges like this because it's built into the genre that you're not supposed to be playing a character or have multiple identities.

Now, everything has got mixed up. David Bowie, for instance, is a Rock performer who comes from the variety tradition. He made it clear he was 'playing' characters like Ziggy Stardust. He was using the sound of rock music, but mixing it with vaudeville-variety role playing. He was in role onstage. (Since about 1980 he's gone back to the more rock-blues tradition of 'just being me' onstage.) Blues-Rock's insistence on first person narratives, on tragedy and pain, on authenticity, and its African-American musical language worked if you were a bluesman, but the further you were from the Blues, the more you became basically a blackface variety artist simply playing a Blues character onstage. Eric Clapton, Joe Cocker and PJ Harvey are all doing this kind of Variety act -- they're cabaret actors playing bluesmen. They're British people playing American roles, they're a woman playing a man, they're people from now playing people from then, they're rich people playing poor people, etc. More disturbing is the idea that they're playing a tragic role 'for laughs', or faking authenticity. And in PJ Harvey or Nick Cave the 'fake primal' does always run the risk of being comical.

At whose expense? When we read Nick Cave's novel -- the story of Euchrid Eucrow, 'the product of several generations of raw liquor consumption and inbreeding' -- aren't we unsettled by an affluent white Australian mimicking an American deep southern accent? Isn't it a form of comedy blackface? Isn't he poking fun at conservative poor people? Nick Cave even invents a new version of 'I' for his narrative voice: 'Ah'. 'Ah' is a comedy-vaudevillian parody of the 'I' you hear in tragic blues songs.

The point is, vaudeville doesn't get any more parodic than when vaudeville performers parody blues performers. That's when vaudeville is at its most fake -- and its most cruel.

Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 16 June 2004 07:39 (nineteen years ago) link

I think you're privileging one aspect of the performance over the rest. With Nick Cave, the parody element has been there from the very start, but I think it has also been mixed in with a genuine fascination of the Southern Gothic. He knows he himself isn't Southern Gothic, so he introduces parody, both of the style but also of himself. I mean, covering "In The Ghetto", what is that if not self parody? I like that interplay, and Cave has progressively got less interesting as he got more earnest.

Jonathan Z. (Joanthan Z.), Wednesday, 16 June 2004 08:18 (nineteen years ago) link

Thee's a lot of truth in your first paragraph, though when you say that most rock singers sing about themselves yyour showing how shallow your knowledge of 'rock' is. What you say applies mostly to the most cliched, mainstream, tacky rock.


Eric Clapton, Joe Cocker and PJ Harvey are all doing this kind of Variety act -- they're cabaret actors playing bluesmen.

Is it okay for white people to do hip hop? Black people to play punk?
Straight people to do disco?

mei (mei), Wednesday, 16 June 2004 08:27 (nineteen years ago) link

Hip Hop is a form of pop music (the dominant form in the US?) and there has never been any art more concerned with 'keeping it real'


Hip Hop is a direct successor to the blues, in terms of lyrics and social aspects, which adds weight to your argument.

mei (mei), Wednesday, 16 June 2004 08:50 (nineteen years ago) link

Is it okay for white people to do hip hop? Black people to play punk? Straight people to do disco?

It's not that it's not okay for these hybrids to happen, it's just that we have to keep an eye on the paradoxes, sleights of hand, patent absurdities, trompe l'oueil, hypocrisy, irony etc that inevitably results. We have to be aware that, instead of listening to 'one man's true story', we're watching a sort of transvestite Houdini getting out of a trunk, tied up, in deliberately-bad blackface, wearing a crooked wig. These are different entertainment experiences and are likely to elicit different emotions in us. I mean, how exactly does one love a ganguro girl? What am I loving when I love her? Do I still love her when she takes the make-up off?

Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 16 June 2004 09:01 (nineteen years ago) link

WTF Ganguro girls? They look like middle aged holiday reps dipped in bovril. Ew.

Anyway...someone like Bo Diddley, Muddy Waters or whoever is such a huge cliche, so carefully ticking all the 'bluesman' boxes that they are playing the role. They're black-faced black people if you will.
Even if they're not aware of it.

mei (mei), Wednesday, 16 June 2004 09:14 (nineteen years ago) link

Nico says Andy likes other people to become Andy for him; that he doesn't want to be always in charge of everything.

"He would rather be me or someone else sometimes ... like the radio interview when I couldn't show up ... he went on and took my part — said the things I would say."

"It's part of pop-art, I guess, that everybody can impersonate somebody else ... that you don't always be you. If tomorrow I find somebody who is pretty much like me and I put her here to sing, she can be Nico while I go to do something else."

Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 16 June 2004 09:53 (nineteen years ago) link

while I go to do something else

Heroin, no doubt. It's interesting that, while pop stars are often 'addicted to painkillers', rock stars resort to heroin. This 'pain killer' actually supplies them with the suffering their wealth forbids them, and is therefore a direct route to authenticity and the blues credibility the genre demands. Heroin = the white man's burden.

Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 16 June 2004 10:08 (nineteen years ago) link

And 'rock' is a single mark in a sketch of what, for me, is good and bad about the so-called advanced societies of the West.

Rock is rebellious, yet like many 'rebels' it rebels against the wrong things, against the things it's told to.

For example, every society has its own compromise between freedom and safety -- a delicately-poised, highly social model.

In our highly capitalist society, we smash traditional social relations, replacing them with a 'lonely crowd' of atomised, irresponsible consumer-individuals in single-dweller units, bingeing on food, drugs, cigarettes, consumer items to fill a perceived inner void.

In the case of nicotine this is a self-imposed void and the void is part of the attraction- an insufficiency of the drug provides a craving every bit as essentially soul-satisfying as the fix that succeeds it.

Without pain, no joy. Without tension no release. Without suffering ...?

Tobacco is a product that kills, smokers enter a death-pact with a product which exemplifies a somewhat self-pitying and destructive mass market version of heroin. Yet cigarrette companies are huge multi-nationals, with global distribution, lobby groups, r&d, design depts that tailor the packets to your live-fast-die-young / fuck-you attittood.
Fat middle aged men with condos and mistresses, selfish, aggressive, egocentric assholes.

Now, everything has really got mixed up.

-Momus, Wednesday, 16 June 2004 10:45 (nineteen years ago) link

Meirion is being Momus while I do heroin, take 15 everyone!

Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 16 June 2004 11:10 (nineteen years ago) link

one of the problems with literary talk about pop like we're doing here is that people may say quite intelligent things but be completely wrong. this often happens when someone's talking about something they don't really care about, for example, momus talking about dylan's plugging in as a crisis point in pop because he is moving from the raw folk to the cooked kiddie pop big time. it's famously well known as such. but surely if his plugging in means anything today, it is to show how this highbrow prejudice was an incorrect assessment of the state of music in the mid-60s... that folk music was hopelessly hokey, and all the best white folk musicians of the folk revival practiced a sort of slavish copying, and the bluesmen such as skip james who were feted by them recorded pale imitations of their earlier work, etc. etc. there were black [and white] musicians who were making vital records in the late 50s and early 60s, and dylan was waking up to what they were: electric blues.

i do like discussing these sort of things:

In our highly capitalist society, we smash traditional social relations, replacing them with a 'lonely crowd' of atomised, irresponsible consumer-individuals in single-dweller units, bingeing on food, drugs, cigarettes, consumer items to fill a perceived inner void.

this is a good thing! a very good thing! if it sounds like an existential crisis, excellent! that's where humanity's at! we need to figure out ways out of repressive social relations, and damaging relations to poorer nations and the people there. a modern middle class white is faced with a stark choice - do i live my life and socialize, and get a family and career and listen to happy dance music, or do i look for something meaningful? the existential crisis is quite simply the search for god or meaning or depth or truth. it's "trainspotting", it's how the human race progresses, by evolving. if no-one evolves, what we end up with is a bunch of clever rich people who destroy the planet.

to believe that rock music, guitar music, is moribund - what rubbish! the sound of a raw guitar tone - for example, a bunch of teens on stage in a bar playing a raunchy cover of little richard or a sonic youth-influenced yet half-assed original - it's a good thing, because it's exciting. a raw guitar sound is like a thick slab of rich color in a painting.

mig (mig), Wednesday, 16 June 2004 20:29 (nineteen years ago) link

Strange thread.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 16 June 2004 20:43 (nineteen years ago) link

how so?

amateur!st (amateurist), Wednesday, 16 June 2004 22:05 (nineteen years ago) link

Twists and turns.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 16 June 2004 22:39 (nineteen years ago) link

I can't believe PJ Harvey has been compared to JR Ewing.

Bimble (bimble), Wednesday, 16 June 2004 23:02 (nineteen years ago) link

to believe that rock music, guitar music, is moribund - what rubbish! the sound of a raw guitar tone - for example, a bunch of teens on stage in a bar playing a raunchy cover of little richard or a sonic youth-influenced yet half-assed original - it's a good thing, because it's exciting. a raw guitar sound is like a thick slab of rich color in a painting.

That's an interesting comparison, because the equivalent of 'rockism' in the art world is the belief that painting is 'the real thing', a direct expression of the painter's emotions, 'timeless', and so on, whereas other forms of art like video art, conceptual art, installation, performance etc are trendy will-o-the-wisps, fly-by-nights, etc. Were you tempted to say 'a raw guitar sound is like a nice slowly-swinging video camera in a Vito Acconci single-channel video work'? You probably weren't.

Momus (Momus), Thursday, 17 June 2004 11:19 (nineteen years ago) link

By the way, you could say that the equivalent of rockism in art is Stuckism. The Stuckists -- conservative punk rock figurative painters who protest the Turner Prize each year -- took their title from what Tracey Emin shouted at one-time boyfriend Billy Childish, one of the originators of Stuckism: 'You're stuck in your work, aren't you? Stuck, stuck, stuck!'

I'm tempted to shout at PJ Harvey, in a similar spirit: 'You rock in your work, don't you? Rock, rock, rock!' For me, to rock and to be stuck are the same thing. To rock is to have chosen the past over the future. It's to be stuck in a dry place without inspiration. However, in Britain the music world is a lot more conservative and backward-looking than the art world. The Mercury Prize rewards Rockism in a way the Turner Prize will never reward Stuckism. In the music world, I'm the crank stuck outside the Tate railings protesting.

Momus (Momus), Thursday, 17 June 2004 11:29 (nineteen years ago) link

Is rock somehow conservative in a way that pop isn't? I don't see it.

Jonathan Z. (Joanthan Z.), Thursday, 17 June 2004 11:51 (nineteen years ago) link

There are a million ways I think rock is more conservative than pop, but if you want just one, I'd say it's this insistence on the timelessness and endurance of its (totally played-out) expressive grammar.

Momus (Momus), Thursday, 17 June 2004 12:09 (nineteen years ago) link

whattayaknow:
posted on Fallnet:
From a recent interview with Polly Jean Harvey (Filter Magazine, Spring 2004):

And if you're looking to crack the surface of what turns this girl named Polly Jean into the songs, sounds and ever-morphing images of PJ Harvey -- the things that may prove to be powerfully influential over her -- you won't find too many people she considers contemporaries.

“I do try and listen to what's happening in contemporary music, but there is very little that I get excited about,” she admits, without a hint of regret or an apologetic sigh -- it's just the way it is, as far as she's concerned. “I do tend to listen to older music rather than newer music. Having said that, a band that I always follow is a band called The Fall, from England. I do find that he's one of my favorite contemporary songwriters -- Mark E. Smith -- and their albums, the last run of them, the last three or four, have really been incredible. And they put out a couple of records a year, so it's always exciting to me that they're releasing new stuff. Other than them, there's very little I've been listening too lately.”

sexyDancer, Thursday, 17 June 2004 13:49 (nineteen years ago) link

That's one smart lady.

I'm the crank stuck outside the Tate railings protesting

That would make you stuck!

Bimble (bimble), Thursday, 17 June 2004 14:38 (nineteen years ago) link

Her name-checking Mark E. Smith is just another example of her fixation on authenticity, since he's the Obelix of authenticity: dipped in a vat of the stuff at birth.

Momus (Momus), Thursday, 17 June 2004 16:05 (nineteen years ago) link

http://heim.ifi.uio.no/~janl/ts/obelix.gif

I'm fit and working again-ah!

Momus (Momus), Thursday, 17 June 2004 16:07 (nineteen years ago) link

what major event will have to happen in your life for you to stop hawking this "fakery is the new authenticity" line anyway? and will your aesthetic sensibilities deepen or will you just go in for another ad-agency-sounding line? i'm really curious to know what "momus at 60" will look like, and whether any of us will recognize the values he will have assumed by then.

amateur!st (amateurist), Thursday, 17 June 2004 17:45 (nineteen years ago) link

i mean, more generally, that i'm amazed at the length of time you have been mounting this sort of argument, and the energy you apparently put into doing so, when it seems--at bottom--rank sophistry decorated with--but not fundamentally effected by--life-observation. it sounds like the kind of thing that would be exhausting after awhile.

amateur!st (amateurist), Thursday, 17 June 2004 17:47 (nineteen years ago) link

dipped in a vat of the stuff at birth.

Is that why all his teeth fell out?

mei (mei), Thursday, 17 June 2004 17:50 (nineteen years ago) link

...well, i find it exhausting, at least. hence my increasingly crabby and personal replies.

amateur!st (amateurist), Thursday, 17 June 2004 17:53 (nineteen years ago) link

To rock is to have chosen the past over the future.

"There won't be any future without rock" sounds equally ridiculuos as apodictic statement but is probably closer to the truth. People will always connect to the primal feelings expressed in rock. Rock has been there for 50 years or so (not counting the blues past)and has been declared dead hundreds of times. Whereas something newish like laptop music may well cease to exist tomorrow as other recent trends like techno already have more or less. They simply don't have the power and the urgency of rock. Playing identity games is so 1960s. On the long run people get bored with it and want the real thing. Andy Warhol was the future in the 60s but he is dead now.

alex in mainhattan (alex63), Thursday, 17 June 2004 17:59 (nineteen years ago) link


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