Fleetwood Mac: Classic or Dud

good stories about scooter, the tusk cover dog, too.

Aw c'mon, share. Kennel-hopping? Worming tablets blown up his ass?

he's a frisky little dude, let's just say that

the memoir by Buck's girlfriend was an odd one.

^^oh maaan this book was heavy (and destroyed my perspective on buck)

yeah buckingham comes off the worst in caillat's book. kind of amazing they even worked together again, but i guess having a record that sells a bajillion copies makes a lot of water go under the bridge.

never gotten the sense that i would ever want to be in the same room as lindsay buckingham

rest of Fleetwood Mac circa the making of 'Tusk' to thread

hope caillat does a making tusk sequel! that's when shit gets real.

sadly it would miss out on all the stuff buckingham did at home on his own

yeah i guess a tusk oral history kinda thing would make more sense.

otoh Caillat and Buck Girlfriend's books makes me wish I hung out with Christine all day every day.

Harris' memoir was unconvincing at almost every level though; even the dialogue, presumably recollected in tranquility, was stilted enough to make "90210" sound like Wilde.

A lot of folks have called bullshit on her memoir, which may explain why it gained so little traction. At the least it sounds pretty par for the course for any relationship built around drugs.

Scooter the "Tusk"-dog stories pale compared to fellow Sound City vet Rick Springfield and his fellow cover star pet pit bull. The Sound City doc has Neil Giraldo claiming he did his take on "Jessie's Girl" with Springfield's iron-jawed dog poised right at his crotch.

just watched the rumours episode of classic albums for the first time on netflix. both mcvies come across as down-to-earth normal cool people. fleetwood too. buckingham comes across, unsurprisingly, as someone who is very very fond of himself. nicks comes across as someone who is very very fond of buckingham, too, and is still a little angry at him. the studio playbacks of their and christine's isolated harmonies are beyond fantastic.

TS:

http://i2.listal.com/image/1896949/600full-fleetwood-mac----tusk-%5Bvinyl%5D-cover.jpg

Vs.

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR6dGCYO1-X8rtkxBSw1W0Z9mg7gmrk9oiT7suqb6uvdXYJSglK

Buckingham should be fond of himself, because he was the glue keeping so much of "Rumours" on up together. Worth noting that Buckingham was never the raging drug or drink fiend that Nicks, Fleetwood or John McVie were. If he's smug it's perhaps because he carried those dudes for so long. "Tango" and "Say You Will" only came about when they begged him to return, and in the case of the former he was tasked with shaping something workable out of Nicks' erratic contributions.

I think Buckingham's rock bottom came in the '80s, but he was pretty isolated from his band (and everyone) at that time. I've seen him solo a few times, and he seemed both modest and extremely grateful for the help of friends shepherding him through his dark period. (He's more or less called "Big Love" autobiographical, and while the song is pretty sketchy, you can still tell he was going through some shit).

(I should stress that the contributions of the other Macs are awesome, it's just that they ultimately needed Buckingham more than he needed them. I get the feeling from at least "Tusk" onward he would have been more than happy just making his own weird records, though clearly the money proved too tempting, and we all benefitted in the end.)

i'm of the belief that they needed each other equally. take away that ridiculously inventive rhythm section and those godlike harmonies ad he's just a quirky singer-songwriter making, yeah, his own weird records, right from the start.

Yes, I saw Buckingham last August and while his 65-minute performance was intense and surprising I couldn't distinguish his humility from PR. Which he's earned! As you point out, he assembled TITN. According to Harris, the group still functioned as one on Mirage.

he probably could have (and maybe did) come up with half of tusk on his own. he couldn't have come up with a single song on rumors on his own. except maybe "never going back again."

(and yes I've seen him solo and loved it.)

btw much of Nicks' solo work through 1985 and intermittently thereafter doesn't need Buckingham, although we can credit him for strengthening self-confidence and songwriting chops.

"Rumours" was I think the only time the band was truly operating "as one." Ironically. But "Tusk" is basically half Lindsey on his own, half Lindsey arranging, polishing, deconstructing the others. Save Christine, who pretty much sounds like herself. (Is she the only band member who ever co-wrote with Lindsey?) "Mirage" really sounds like Lindsey let loose with proto digital tools, perhaps a concession to lure him back to the band. I imagine he had even more control on "Tango," when he really didn't want to be involved at all. Then "Say You Will" is pretty much the Lindsey show again. The other guys in the band are what make the records sound so great, of course, tempering his high strung tendencies.

Btw, I agree Nicks did not need Bucky in the '80s, which is also ironic, given she was such a mess.

The degree to which Buckingham deserves songwriting credit on Nicks' songs will never get resolved -- it's a tango in the night.

I can't wait for the definitive account of the Tango sessions, about which we know so little.

Well, I mean, she's only got three songs on there, and one was a co-write with Sandy Stewart, who wrote the music.

Huh, she (Sandy) recorded a duet with Nile Rodgers for the "White Nights" soundtrack! "This is Your Day."

Oh, you mean all her Mac songs? Yeah, well, talk about "he couldn't have come up with a single song on rumors on his own." Only apply it to all the Nicks Mac songs. But then, they wouldn't be what they are without her formative contributions, melodies, lyrics, etc.

and co-wrote "If Anyone Falls" and "Nightbird."

A lot of folks have called bullshit on her memoir, which may explain why it gained so little traction. At the least it sounds pretty par for the course for any relationship built around drugs.

Sorry if I'm being a broken record but I feel like we've been over this a few times now. This is like the second or third time you have posted a justification for the fact that Lindsey hit women -- drugs, the women were crazy, he's an artist who was in a "dark place," it was the 70s and 80s.

I like his music too, but I honestly don't think there's any doubting that the guy has a pattern of physically abusing women that was reprehensible.

What gives?

Josh can get Lindsay to change, you'll see

Hey, I'm trying my best!

If you read the Amazon comments, there's actually an exchange between Harris and Jeremy Spencer where he accuses her of making stuff up. So there's that. Really, though, I don't know about "a pattern of physically abusing women." Is that right? Has Anne Heche mentioned it? Has Stevie mentioned it? I don't recall seeing such an accusation anywhere but in Harris's salacious tell-all. Which doesn't make it not true! But there's are too many unfounded accusations and too much cocaine involved in this tangled tale to take anyone's sole voice as gospel.

jeremy spencer wouldn't be my first stop for reliable witnesses tbqh

Caillat talks about it in his book -- it may actually be Carol Ann. He was totally freaked out by it and basically realized Buck was a terrible person as a result.

There are other stories as well relating to Stevie.

If your point about coke is related to memory, then that doesn't really hold water because I don't think there's much doubt that hitting/choking women (and guys too IIRC) is a well-documented "thing" for him.

If its "hey, people do crazy things when they're fucked up" or "he just had an anger management problem" -- give me a break.

And if it's "not every woman he's been with has written a tell-all book about his physical abuse," then you obviously don't know much about it -- because the whole point is that women DON'T talk about it. Not enough anyway. They stick with abusive guys long after they should for a variety of reasons -- almost all really sad and really common.

Part of the reason I'm just not giving in here is that I spent today reading all these people justifying Mike Rice, the coach of Rutgers, berating his players and throwing balls at their heads as "old school" and "character building."

It's neither. There's nothing justifiable about abuse -- not the era where it was tolerated, nothing.

If Lindsey has gotten help and gotten this under control, great. But it doesn't make him any different than Ike Taylor or Chris Brown.

Picturing Taylor Swift throwing a b-ball at Ed Sheeran in a mixing desk rage. Thanking you.

I'm not trying to convince you. xpost There is no excuse to hit or abuse anyone, especially not your sig. other. I would not be surprised that Buckingham was an emotionally abusive person, prone to screaming, fits, maybe even violence. But so far the only source, anywhere - I read Caillat's book, and don't remember him going into this in much detail - that really goes into is the Harris book, which, again, does not make it untrue. But the difference between Buckingham and Rice, Brown, Ike et al. is that the violence of the latter crew has been well-documented. Buckingham is a massively public figure with massively public relationships, from a band famous above all else for its emotional distress and discussing it, at length, through song and interviews and, yes, tell-alls and docs. It would take a hundred people turning their backs or covering up for him to keep this physically abusive side of him a secret for decades, though I admit it's possible! It's a scummy business. I've read enough of these tell alls, from Motley Crue to Peter Criss to Zevon to whomever to believe they're likely all terrible people prone to far worse than what actually gets reported.

But so far the only source, anywhere - I read Caillat's book, and don't remember him going into this in much detail - that really goes into is the Harris book

Since I have the Caillat book on Kindle, allow me to refresh your memory:

Suddenly, Lindsey barged through the front door from the street and went directly into the studio. A few minutes later, Richard and Christina came in the back door, having parked behind the studio. They both walked past Lindsey without saying a word and went directly into the control room. Christina was white and trembling. There were no jokes coming from Richard, either. “I’ll go talk to him,” Richard said to Christina.

He walked out of the control room and closed the door. “What happened?” I asked Christina, who had begun to cry hysterically. “I don’t know. I think it’s over. And what’s worse is that Lindsey punched me in the face. Then he started yelling all this crazy stuff about how he couldn’t take it, and I had to leave.” Richard came in and told Christina that Lindsey was sorry, that he didn’t know what had happened, but he did want her to leave.

I called a cab for Christina, and that was it. She was gone. I really thought Christina and Lindsey had been great together. I’ll never forget how she trembled after Lindsey attacked her. Her face had red marks on it where he had hit her. Lindsey always seemed to be wound a little too tight, but I hadn’t expected that he would get physical with a woman. I felt sick, as if the magic had been destroyed.

Little did I know that I would also experience his physical rage in the near future. Richard was upset, too. He had been at the house at the time and had seen the whole thing. “What are you doing, Lindsey? Are you fucking crazy?” he demanded when we were alone with Lindsey. “You don’t do that to people!” “I know. You’re right,” Lindsey said. “I don’t know why she got me that mad.”

“Let’s get out of here,” Richard said. Lindsey and I agreed. It was Saturday, and we decided to take a break until Monday at noon.

...

The guys were getting along really well at this point, but I kept thinking about what Lindsey had done to Christina a couple days before. I was fighting a battle, admiring his musical genius and being disgusted by his personal behavior. I guess I should have been prepared for his violent streak against Christina by his actions in the past, but time would reveal the real Lindsey to me soon enough. I’d had the weekend to think about Lindsey’s attack against Christina. Talking to Cheryl had helped. She felt that it was good that Christina was gone, or it probably would have gotten worse. I wondered whether Lindsey had ever physically hurt Stevie.

I didn’t know if he had in the past, but I would see him kick her in the butt onstage during the Tusk tour three years later.

And I'm not even including the part where Lindsey chokes Caillat for erasing a track he asked him to tape over

Not a lot of shades of grey here, Josh.

Yeah, sounds like a dick, a massively enabled dick working in a world of fellow massively enabled and enabling dicks. It's just a shame that this stuff stays silent for decades until it's time for someone to write a book.

I don't know, but is there a distinction to be made between a person prone to violent outbursts and someone with a specific pattern of physically abusing women? He sounds like an abusive person, period.

I don't know, but is there a distinction to be made between a person prone to violent outbursts and someone with a specific pattern of physically abusing women? He sounds like an abusive person, period.

― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, April 4, 2013 3:27 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i don't know what incredibly fine hair you are trying to split here.

I'm not! But wife/girlfriend beater is the absolute bottom, as far as distinctions go. There are a host of horrible people in music and stuff who are not held in nearly as ill esteem as others who beat or otherwise abuse women.

I guess I'm just trying to gauge how irredeemable he is, or these belated revelations make him. The closest analogy I can think of is a pro athlete. If an athlete is caught doing drugs, that's one thing. If an athlete is caught using steroids, that's as bad as it gets, and that will be an asterisk that follows him around for the rest of his life.

does it matter whether he's irredeemable? I mean, he's an irredeemable asshole who made fantastic music.

It matters a little to me, yeah, especially since he seems to have made a conscious effort to chill out and make himself better. Operative word being "seems," I guess. As opposed to the usual unrepentant suspects.

I wondered whether Lindsey had ever physically hurt Stevie.

well there was this:

"I was crying when we took that picture. And Lindsey was mad at me. He said, 'You know, you're just being a child. This is art.' And I'm going, 'This is not *art*. This is me taking a nude photograph with you, and I don't dig it.'"

For a bunch of sixty-year olds they sure can put on a good show! I seriously feared Lindsey was gonna have a heart attack after "I'm So Afraid." They have a new song called "Sad Angel" and it's gonna be a huge hit. Stevie was singing like an angel, and they all looked like they were having the time of their lives up there. Rock!

I guess I'm just trying to gauge how irredeemable he is, or these belated revelations make him. The closest analogy I can think of is a pro athlete. If an athlete is caught doing drugs, that's one thing. If an athlete is caught using steroids, that's as bad as it gets, and that will be an asterisk that follows him around for the rest of his life.

― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, April 4, 2013 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

it's much more like when an athlete beats his wife.

xp that's nice to hear, Mr. Snrub. I 've got tix to see them soon, and am a tad nervous (first time seeing them ... emotionally invested in the music ... expectations yadda yadda...)

classic

http://www.bigozine2.com/TRKSB/FMcolumbus/FMcolumbus104.mp3
[live debut of that new song]

http://www.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/music/midnight-sun-blog/bal-fleetwood-mac-at-verizon-center-review,0,4842455.story
Nice review of the Baltimore gig from Lexie Mountain.

Technically, that's really the Baltimore Sun review of a show in Washington DC at the Verizon Center. Here's the W. Post freelancer's take:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/music/fleetwood-mac-relives-rumours-as-crowd-revels-in-hits-at-verizon-center/2013/04/10/118044a0-a1e5-11e2-9c03-6952ff305f35_story.html

This is such a weird, weirdly wrong graf:

The night wasn’t only about “Rumours.” Drummer Mick Fleetwood, 65, who lived in the D.C. area in the 1990s while running a nightclub named Fleetwood’s in Alexandria, got to shine during “Not That Funny” and “Tusk,” both cuts from a 1979 percussion-heavy double LP also called “Tusk” that served as a sort of musical equivalent of “Heaven’s Gate.” The band delivered the collection so over budget (it was labeled the costliest record ever made) that the album was considered a flop before it hit the bins. But, as Buckingham boasted while introducing the “Tusk” portion of the set, time has been kind. The record ended up selling in the multi-platinum range and has been embraced in more recent decades by scads of indie-rock bands, who have mined edginess from perhaps the most middle-of-the-road band in rock annals. Two examples: The Decemberists covered “Think About Me,” and Camper Van Beethoven covered the entire two-record set.

I had never heard the Peter Green stuff....it's awesome! What should I go for after Best Of...which is all I've heard? Thanks.