"Uh Huh Her." Thoughts on the new PJ Harvey?

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JK Rowling wasn't anti-American in her casting of Harry Potter; she wanted an English actor playing an explicitly English character, rather than an American kid doing an accent. I suppose she was discriminatory in not hiring PJ Harvey to play him...

Layna Andersen (Layna Andersen), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 23:37 (twenty years ago) link

Rock longevity: don't change a thing!
Pop longevity: change all the time!
-- Momus (nic...), June 15th, 2004.

Now you're being facetious!

Counteraxample: Madonna.

She's one of the longest running and most successful pop acts yet she's remained virtually constant over the years: all her songs are about love, sex and kooky spirituality set to an easy-on-the-ear chart-style 4/4 backing.

mei (mei), Wednesday, 16 June 2004 06:35 (nineteen years ago) link

Also, Cliff Richard is pop isn't he? And David Bowie rock?

mei (mei), Wednesday, 16 June 2004 06:37 (nineteen years ago) link

On her first album PJ occasionally has an obviously English bumpkin accent.

mei (mei), Wednesday, 16 June 2004 06:44 (nineteen years ago) link

Another 'aggressively simplified dichotomy' just occurred to me. The 'I' in a pop song is quite different from the 'I' in a rock song, because pop and rock have different origins. Pop music comes from variety-vaudeville-music hall (in France it's still called Varietee) whereas rock comes from the Blues. Now, these are quite different traditions. In variety a performer comes out on stage in role, in costume. He's an actor playing a character, usually for laughs. The 'I' in a variety song might as well be 'he'. It refers to a stereotype, a creation, a caricature, a funny freak. The literary mode is theatrical, and comic. In the blues, the literary mode is autobiographical, and tragic. The form gets its power from our belief that the person singing 'I woke up this morning' is telling us something 'real' about his suffering. He is the person he says he is, and has really gone through the things he's singing about. We are moved. His 'I' is not 'he' but I. Instead of wearing make-up and costume, the blues performer gives us the impression of stripping away all artifice and showing us his soul. It would be absurd to say to a pop-variety performer 'You're not really Sgt. Pepper! You haven't lived that!' But it would be quite relevant to say to a blues-rock performer 'You didn't wake up this morning to find yourself a homeless drifter abandoned by your woman, in fact you probably had a meeting with your masseuse and then your accountant!' Blues-rock is open to charges like this because it's built into the genre that you're not supposed to be playing a character or have multiple identities.

Now, everything has got mixed up. David Bowie, for instance, is a Rock performer who comes from the variety tradition. He made it clear he was 'playing' characters like Ziggy Stardust. He was using the sound of rock music, but mixing it with vaudeville-variety role playing. He was in role onstage. (Since about 1980 he's gone back to the more rock-blues tradition of 'just being me' onstage.) Blues-Rock's insistence on first person narratives, on tragedy and pain, on authenticity, and its African-American musical language worked if you were a bluesman, but the further you were from the Blues, the more you became basically a blackface variety artist simply playing a Blues character onstage. Eric Clapton, Joe Cocker and PJ Harvey are all doing this kind of Variety act -- they're cabaret actors playing bluesmen. They're British people playing American roles, they're a woman playing a man, they're people from now playing people from then, they're rich people playing poor people, etc. More disturbing is the idea that they're playing a tragic role 'for laughs', or faking authenticity. And in PJ Harvey or Nick Cave the 'fake primal' does always run the risk of being comical.

At whose expense? When we read Nick Cave's novel -- the story of Euchrid Eucrow, 'the product of several generations of raw liquor consumption and inbreeding' -- aren't we unsettled by an affluent white Australian mimicking an American deep southern accent? Isn't it a form of comedy blackface? Isn't he poking fun at conservative poor people? Nick Cave even invents a new version of 'I' for his narrative voice: 'Ah'. 'Ah' is a comedy-vaudevillian parody of the 'I' you hear in tragic blues songs.

The point is, vaudeville doesn't get any more parodic than when vaudeville performers parody blues performers. That's when vaudeville is at its most fake -- and its most cruel.

Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 16 June 2004 07:39 (nineteen years ago) link

I think you're privileging one aspect of the performance over the rest. With Nick Cave, the parody element has been there from the very start, but I think it has also been mixed in with a genuine fascination of the Southern Gothic. He knows he himself isn't Southern Gothic, so he introduces parody, both of the style but also of himself. I mean, covering "In The Ghetto", what is that if not self parody? I like that interplay, and Cave has progressively got less interesting as he got more earnest.

Jonathan Z. (Joanthan Z.), Wednesday, 16 June 2004 08:18 (nineteen years ago) link

Thee's a lot of truth in your first paragraph, though when you say that most rock singers sing about themselves yyour showing how shallow your knowledge of 'rock' is. What you say applies mostly to the most cliched, mainstream, tacky rock.


Eric Clapton, Joe Cocker and PJ Harvey are all doing this kind of Variety act -- they're cabaret actors playing bluesmen.

Is it okay for white people to do hip hop? Black people to play punk?
Straight people to do disco?

mei (mei), Wednesday, 16 June 2004 08:27 (nineteen years ago) link

Hip Hop is a form of pop music (the dominant form in the US?) and there has never been any art more concerned with 'keeping it real'


Hip Hop is a direct successor to the blues, in terms of lyrics and social aspects, which adds weight to your argument.

mei (mei), Wednesday, 16 June 2004 08:50 (nineteen years ago) link

Is it okay for white people to do hip hop? Black people to play punk? Straight people to do disco?

It's not that it's not okay for these hybrids to happen, it's just that we have to keep an eye on the paradoxes, sleights of hand, patent absurdities, trompe l'oueil, hypocrisy, irony etc that inevitably results. We have to be aware that, instead of listening to 'one man's true story', we're watching a sort of transvestite Houdini getting out of a trunk, tied up, in deliberately-bad blackface, wearing a crooked wig. These are different entertainment experiences and are likely to elicit different emotions in us. I mean, how exactly does one love a ganguro girl? What am I loving when I love her? Do I still love her when she takes the make-up off?

Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 16 June 2004 09:01 (nineteen years ago) link

WTF Ganguro girls? They look like middle aged holiday reps dipped in bovril. Ew.

Anyway...someone like Bo Diddley, Muddy Waters or whoever is such a huge cliche, so carefully ticking all the 'bluesman' boxes that they are playing the role. They're black-faced black people if you will.
Even if they're not aware of it.

mei (mei), Wednesday, 16 June 2004 09:14 (nineteen years ago) link

Nico says Andy likes other people to become Andy for him; that he doesn't want to be always in charge of everything.

"He would rather be me or someone else sometimes ... like the radio interview when I couldn't show up ... he went on and took my part — said the things I would say."

"It's part of pop-art, I guess, that everybody can impersonate somebody else ... that you don't always be you. If tomorrow I find somebody who is pretty much like me and I put her here to sing, she can be Nico while I go to do something else."

Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 16 June 2004 09:53 (nineteen years ago) link

while I go to do something else

Heroin, no doubt. It's interesting that, while pop stars are often 'addicted to painkillers', rock stars resort to heroin. This 'pain killer' actually supplies them with the suffering their wealth forbids them, and is therefore a direct route to authenticity and the blues credibility the genre demands. Heroin = the white man's burden.

Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 16 June 2004 10:08 (nineteen years ago) link

And 'rock' is a single mark in a sketch of what, for me, is good and bad about the so-called advanced societies of the West.

Rock is rebellious, yet like many 'rebels' it rebels against the wrong things, against the things it's told to.

For example, every society has its own compromise between freedom and safety -- a delicately-poised, highly social model.

In our highly capitalist society, we smash traditional social relations, replacing them with a 'lonely crowd' of atomised, irresponsible consumer-individuals in single-dweller units, bingeing on food, drugs, cigarettes, consumer items to fill a perceived inner void.

In the case of nicotine this is a self-imposed void and the void is part of the attraction- an insufficiency of the drug provides a craving every bit as essentially soul-satisfying as the fix that succeeds it.

Without pain, no joy. Without tension no release. Without suffering ...?

Tobacco is a product that kills, smokers enter a death-pact with a product which exemplifies a somewhat self-pitying and destructive mass market version of heroin. Yet cigarrette companies are huge multi-nationals, with global distribution, lobby groups, r&d, design depts that tailor the packets to your live-fast-die-young / fuck-you attittood.
Fat middle aged men with condos and mistresses, selfish, aggressive, egocentric assholes.

Now, everything has really got mixed up.

-Momus, Wednesday, 16 June 2004 10:45 (nineteen years ago) link

Meirion is being Momus while I do heroin, take 15 everyone!

Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 16 June 2004 11:10 (nineteen years ago) link

one of the problems with literary talk about pop like we're doing here is that people may say quite intelligent things but be completely wrong. this often happens when someone's talking about something they don't really care about, for example, momus talking about dylan's plugging in as a crisis point in pop because he is moving from the raw folk to the cooked kiddie pop big time. it's famously well known as such. but surely if his plugging in means anything today, it is to show how this highbrow prejudice was an incorrect assessment of the state of music in the mid-60s... that folk music was hopelessly hokey, and all the best white folk musicians of the folk revival practiced a sort of slavish copying, and the bluesmen such as skip james who were feted by them recorded pale imitations of their earlier work, etc. etc. there were black [and white] musicians who were making vital records in the late 50s and early 60s, and dylan was waking up to what they were: electric blues.

i do like discussing these sort of things:

In our highly capitalist society, we smash traditional social relations, replacing them with a 'lonely crowd' of atomised, irresponsible consumer-individuals in single-dweller units, bingeing on food, drugs, cigarettes, consumer items to fill a perceived inner void.

this is a good thing! a very good thing! if it sounds like an existential crisis, excellent! that's where humanity's at! we need to figure out ways out of repressive social relations, and damaging relations to poorer nations and the people there. a modern middle class white is faced with a stark choice - do i live my life and socialize, and get a family and career and listen to happy dance music, or do i look for something meaningful? the existential crisis is quite simply the search for god or meaning or depth or truth. it's "trainspotting", it's how the human race progresses, by evolving. if no-one evolves, what we end up with is a bunch of clever rich people who destroy the planet.

to believe that rock music, guitar music, is moribund - what rubbish! the sound of a raw guitar tone - for example, a bunch of teens on stage in a bar playing a raunchy cover of little richard or a sonic youth-influenced yet half-assed original - it's a good thing, because it's exciting. a raw guitar sound is like a thick slab of rich color in a painting.

mig (mig), Wednesday, 16 June 2004 20:29 (nineteen years ago) link

Strange thread.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 16 June 2004 20:43 (nineteen years ago) link

how so?

amateur!st (amateurist), Wednesday, 16 June 2004 22:05 (nineteen years ago) link

Twists and turns.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 16 June 2004 22:39 (nineteen years ago) link

I can't believe PJ Harvey has been compared to JR Ewing.

Bimble (bimble), Wednesday, 16 June 2004 23:02 (nineteen years ago) link

to believe that rock music, guitar music, is moribund - what rubbish! the sound of a raw guitar tone - for example, a bunch of teens on stage in a bar playing a raunchy cover of little richard or a sonic youth-influenced yet half-assed original - it's a good thing, because it's exciting. a raw guitar sound is like a thick slab of rich color in a painting.

That's an interesting comparison, because the equivalent of 'rockism' in the art world is the belief that painting is 'the real thing', a direct expression of the painter's emotions, 'timeless', and so on, whereas other forms of art like video art, conceptual art, installation, performance etc are trendy will-o-the-wisps, fly-by-nights, etc. Were you tempted to say 'a raw guitar sound is like a nice slowly-swinging video camera in a Vito Acconci single-channel video work'? You probably weren't.

Momus (Momus), Thursday, 17 June 2004 11:19 (nineteen years ago) link

By the way, you could say that the equivalent of rockism in art is Stuckism. The Stuckists -- conservative punk rock figurative painters who protest the Turner Prize each year -- took their title from what Tracey Emin shouted at one-time boyfriend Billy Childish, one of the originators of Stuckism: 'You're stuck in your work, aren't you? Stuck, stuck, stuck!'

I'm tempted to shout at PJ Harvey, in a similar spirit: 'You rock in your work, don't you? Rock, rock, rock!' For me, to rock and to be stuck are the same thing. To rock is to have chosen the past over the future. It's to be stuck in a dry place without inspiration. However, in Britain the music world is a lot more conservative and backward-looking than the art world. The Mercury Prize rewards Rockism in a way the Turner Prize will never reward Stuckism. In the music world, I'm the crank stuck outside the Tate railings protesting.

Momus (Momus), Thursday, 17 June 2004 11:29 (nineteen years ago) link

Is rock somehow conservative in a way that pop isn't? I don't see it.

Jonathan Z. (Joanthan Z.), Thursday, 17 June 2004 11:51 (nineteen years ago) link

There are a million ways I think rock is more conservative than pop, but if you want just one, I'd say it's this insistence on the timelessness and endurance of its (totally played-out) expressive grammar.

Momus (Momus), Thursday, 17 June 2004 12:09 (nineteen years ago) link

whattayaknow:
posted on Fallnet:
From a recent interview with Polly Jean Harvey (Filter Magazine, Spring 2004):

And if you're looking to crack the surface of what turns this girl named Polly Jean into the songs, sounds and ever-morphing images of PJ Harvey -- the things that may prove to be powerfully influential over her -- you won't find too many people she considers contemporaries.

“I do try and listen to what's happening in contemporary music, but there is very little that I get excited about,” she admits, without a hint of regret or an apologetic sigh -- it's just the way it is, as far as she's concerned. “I do tend to listen to older music rather than newer music. Having said that, a band that I always follow is a band called The Fall, from England. I do find that he's one of my favorite contemporary songwriters -- Mark E. Smith -- and their albums, the last run of them, the last three or four, have really been incredible. And they put out a couple of records a year, so it's always exciting to me that they're releasing new stuff. Other than them, there's very little I've been listening too lately.”

sexyDancer, Thursday, 17 June 2004 13:49 (nineteen years ago) link

That's one smart lady.

I'm the crank stuck outside the Tate railings protesting

That would make you stuck!

Bimble (bimble), Thursday, 17 June 2004 14:38 (nineteen years ago) link

Her name-checking Mark E. Smith is just another example of her fixation on authenticity, since he's the Obelix of authenticity: dipped in a vat of the stuff at birth.

Momus (Momus), Thursday, 17 June 2004 16:05 (nineteen years ago) link

http://heim.ifi.uio.no/~janl/ts/obelix.gif

I'm fit and working again-ah!

Momus (Momus), Thursday, 17 June 2004 16:07 (nineteen years ago) link

what major event will have to happen in your life for you to stop hawking this "fakery is the new authenticity" line anyway? and will your aesthetic sensibilities deepen or will you just go in for another ad-agency-sounding line? i'm really curious to know what "momus at 60" will look like, and whether any of us will recognize the values he will have assumed by then.

amateur!st (amateurist), Thursday, 17 June 2004 17:45 (nineteen years ago) link

i mean, more generally, that i'm amazed at the length of time you have been mounting this sort of argument, and the energy you apparently put into doing so, when it seems--at bottom--rank sophistry decorated with--but not fundamentally effected by--life-observation. it sounds like the kind of thing that would be exhausting after awhile.

amateur!st (amateurist), Thursday, 17 June 2004 17:47 (nineteen years ago) link

dipped in a vat of the stuff at birth.

Is that why all his teeth fell out?

mei (mei), Thursday, 17 June 2004 17:50 (nineteen years ago) link

...well, i find it exhausting, at least. hence my increasingly crabby and personal replies.

amateur!st (amateurist), Thursday, 17 June 2004 17:53 (nineteen years ago) link

To rock is to have chosen the past over the future.

"There won't be any future without rock" sounds equally ridiculuos as apodictic statement but is probably closer to the truth. People will always connect to the primal feelings expressed in rock. Rock has been there for 50 years or so (not counting the blues past)and has been declared dead hundreds of times. Whereas something newish like laptop music may well cease to exist tomorrow as other recent trends like techno already have more or less. They simply don't have the power and the urgency of rock. Playing identity games is so 1960s. On the long run people get bored with it and want the real thing. Andy Warhol was the future in the 60s but he is dead now.

alex in mainhattan (alex63), Thursday, 17 June 2004 17:59 (nineteen years ago) link

i'd like to give you my theory of music marketing. it goes like so:

EITHER

[b]Same Shit Different Arsehole[/b]

this is the pop music business model obviously. you give 'em the same catchy pap fronted by an ever-changing conveyor belt of young faces. witness cover version recyling, the stock in trade of breaking a new pop 'artiste'.

[b]Same Arsehole Different Shit[/b]

this is a more radiohead/U2 type of schtick. you've got to deliver the goods that your core fanbase want, at the same time as only [i]cosmetically[/i] altering what you really do. witness Achtung Baby, Joshua Tree with a few knobs on, sold to joe P as the new ironic post-modern U2 with artwork to match. actually that's unfair to radiohead, they have made actual musical changes over their lifespan.

so back to Peej. i must out myself right now as a HUGE fan, but i feel she's kinda treading water on this one. i can't listen to ITD front to back, but on some of those tracks the phasers are clearly set to 'Mindblowing' (Sky Lit Up, No Girl So Sweet etc). UHH sounds like a retread of old stuff but done in a slightly more palatable fashion. i dunno, i'm not feeling it. i expect a certain amount of [i]risk[/i] out of her - hell, Stories was so unexpectedly caution-to-the-wind melodic and poppy that it knocked me clean off my feet. no, it isn't her 'best' work, but you could still feel the decisions and the price it exacted from her. my bitching is testament to how high she's set the bar on previous outings.

on the plus side, the seagulls send me off into a deep and blissful sleep.

j clarkson, Thursday, 17 June 2004 18:12 (nineteen years ago) link

Has she been listening to Alejandra and Aeron, then? Field recordings are the new rock; there's nothing more authentic than just holding a mic up to the world.

Momus (Momus), Thursday, 17 June 2004 18:22 (nineteen years ago) link

in total sincerity, you maintain a consistently interesting tension between wrongheadedness and knowing self-parody.

amateur!st (amateurist), Thursday, 17 June 2004 18:29 (nineteen years ago) link

"There won't be any future without field recordings" sounds equally ridiculous as apodictic statement but is probably closer to the truth. People will always connect to the natural sounds captured in field recordings. Field recordings have been there for 50 years or so (not counting field recordings of the blues) and have been declared dead hundreds of times. Whereas something newish like rock music may well cease to exist tomorrow as other trends like techno already have more or less. They simply don't have the power and the urgency of field recordings. Playing authenticity games is so 1960s. In the long run people get bored with it and want documentary. Jimi Hendrix was the future in the 60s but he is dead now.

Momus (Momus), Thursday, 17 June 2004 18:31 (nineteen years ago) link

field recordings = possible with the innovation of electronic recording = began ca. 1927 = approx 80 yrs old

amateur!st (amateurist), Thursday, 17 June 2004 18:33 (nineteen years ago) link

(Yes, Prof! My statement was a détournement of Alex's. By the way, détournement was invented in 1957.)

Momus (Momus), Thursday, 17 June 2004 18:38 (nineteen years ago) link

oh, i didn't realize the "50" part was taken from the previous post as well.

sorry for being a dreary pedant.

amateur!st (amateurist), Thursday, 17 June 2004 18:41 (nineteen years ago) link

Perhaps I've not been here long enough, but I find Momus' contribution to this thread very entertaining.

mei (mei), Thursday, 17 June 2004 19:03 (nineteen years ago) link

nice reply, momus. even though guy debord is dead as well...

alex in mainhattan (alex63), Thursday, 17 June 2004 19:43 (nineteen years ago) link

http://ew2.lysator.liu.se/fanq/h/e/hester2/dogmatix.jpg

And we all know who this is, don't we Momusmatix?

mei (mei), Thursday, 17 June 2004 19:50 (nineteen years ago) link

Guy Debord is dead

Bobby Gillespie once said, in a rockist justification of his relevance despite being over 40, 'The young can't get it up like us and Iggy can'. So I'd paraphrase that and say 'The living can't get it up like Andy Warhol and Guy Debord can'.

Momus (Momus), Thursday, 17 June 2004 19:53 (nineteen years ago) link

guy debord was such a party animal.

amateur!st (amateurist), Thursday, 17 June 2004 20:56 (nineteen years ago) link

...censure and mockery indeed.

sexyDancer, Friday, 18 June 2004 13:31 (nineteen years ago) link

four months pass...
Cripes I forgot how long this thread was. Anyway, finally got the full album (as I'm seeing her on Tuesday at the Wiltern, I figured better late than never), and so far it's pretty damn good.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 21 October 2004 02:44 (nineteen years ago) link

I enjoy it too. I haven't heard any others post-To Bring You My Love. This doesn't seem as great as that one or Rid of Me but it's still nice, more stripped-down and 'punky', and still sounding very 90s to me. There's something weirdly formalist about it for me, in that I'm reminded of Patti Smith and Siouxsie Sioux much more often than with those others. Somehow Mecca Normal and Kim Gordon's songs on EJST&NS also came to mind as reference points for some reason. My favourites are the slower ones like "It's You". It's probably at least as good as the Blonde Redhead album.

sundar subramanian (sundar), Thursday, 21 October 2004 05:01 (nineteen years ago) link

And, yes, I enjoy her accent very much.

sundar subramanian (sundar), Thursday, 21 October 2004 05:02 (nineteen years ago) link

those are all valid reference points but duuuuude hear Stories From The City. Try.

manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 21 October 2004 06:08 (nineteen years ago) link


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