TS: XTC's Black Sea vs. English Settlement

Tissue Tigers!

Wow, this is tough. I reviewed the tracklisting and its got to be English Settlement for me. I adore every single track, even the of vocals of Leisure and Melt The Guns. It's sequenced perfectly and takes me on a tour of Swindon every time. I'm not even tired of Senses after all these years.

I read that Andy Partridge spent a lot of his childhood confined to bed due to illness. Do you think that this produces a certain kind of personality type? I think Steve Harley also spent a lot of childhood bedridden, and their records both have this almost prissy attention to detail and neatness, they both create the type of music that gets described as 'well-constructed', i think. Does this come from spending large part of your formative years in a restricted environment that you have total control over, not having to interact with other people?

A lot of XTC songs feel '3D' to me, like they construct these detailed but claustrophobic/hermetically sealed worlds/landscapes. If you are a bedridden child you must take refuge in fantasy and imagination to a large extent, so it must be an odd combination of freedom, like you can create worlds that you have total control over, but also restriction. I read a description of XTC's music somewhere that said that though a lot of it is jaunty/whimsical, there's always this sense just under the surface of something being not quite right.

"Black Sea" wins this pretty easily tho "English Settlement" is full of great things. I don't like the sequencing of "English Settlement", opening with two Moulding songs and then having NINE Andy Partridge songs in a row, I'm afraid that's too much Partridge in one sitting for me esp. as so many of the songs are him at his most long-winded and indigestible.

I don't often listen to English Settlement from front to back in one sitting but I've only ever dealt with it as a CD or digital album and usually jump back and forth between different tracks. I can see how it might be unwieldy as a vinyl double album.

I hadn't listened to it in years (and I mean, like, decades) but I listened to in one sitting and that long sequence of AP songs really began to drag

Black Sea. Still never fails to exhilarate and is also one of my all time favorite crunchy guitar records. The albums that preceded it were too squirrelly and right after it they swerved away from that stinging crunch.

Eng Sett has an absolutely killer single lp in it but yeah side 3 ewww.

gonna edit them both into a single LP, for the fuck of it, and also to further demonstrate my preference for ES:

SIDE A

runaways
ball & chain
senses working overtime
jason & the argonauts
no thugs in our house
no language in our lungs

SIDE B

towers of london
fly on the wall
leisure
english roundabout
snowman
travels in nihilon

This thread has just set me off on a massive XTC binge... thanks ILX! (and I mean that with absolutely zero sarcasm, of course)

A lot of XTC songs feel '3D' to me, like they construct these detailed but claustrophobic/hermetically sealed worlds/landscapes. If you are a bedridden child you must take refuge in fantasy and imagination to a large extent, so it must be an odd combination of freedom, like you can create worlds that you have total control over, but also restriction.

Possibly related to that thought, Andy once said that he and Colin determined that Andy was in indoor person who wrote outdoor songs, and Colin was an outdoor person who wrote indoor songs.

English Settlement, side 2 and a half..

1. Blame The Weather (3:37) Written-By – C. Moulding*
2. Tissue Tigers (The Arguers) (3:55) Written-By – A. Partridge*
3. Heaven Is Paved With Broken Glass (5:07) Written-By – Partridge*
4. Punch And Judy (2:44) Written-By – Partridge*
5. Looking For Footprints (3:28) Written-By – Partridge*

this is really close, voting english settlement i guess

like this basically boils down to '60 minutes of XTC at their peak or 40 minutes of XTC at their peak'

I'm with Mark here, English Settlement would be maybe their greatest album (or at least, it would stand up next to Skylarking) had they replaced some of the dead spots on Side 3 with those excellent B-sides, at least "Tissue Tigers" and "The World is Full of Angry Young Men"

I don't like the sequencing of "English Settlement"...

I'm sure I've opined on another XTC thread, but I've only ever owned the American English Settlement and I think the sequencing of that is excellent. That means I'm not overly familiar with "Leisure" or "Knuckle Down" on the seemingly maligned side 3. I have no problems with "Melt The Guns" and "Africa," love them both.

I thought 'Looking For Footprints' was an earlier track, it is descended from a song called Sleepyheads which, I'm guessing, is from Drums & Wires or earlier.

I'm torn on this. Just last week I rediscovered Black Sea and decided it's their most consistently great album - every track is a killer. But English Settlement is both a sentimental favorite and, for reasons that a lot of people have said above, maybe their single best album - it has the journey, the high points, the kind of perfect moment of getting a bit mature and realizing that it's happening, as you hear on songs like "All of a Sudden." I'm surprised nobody's mentioned that song yet - it's a great distillation of realizing you've grown up now, this is it, this is where you are, so what's next? I love that the album doesn't have a "concept." A bunch of English boys basically think about going to Africa and never actually get there. There are no grand schemes, just small realizations. And "Senses Working Overtime" - still one of the all-time greats.

"Knuckle Down" is one of their weakest but best-placed songs. It's nothing special but you need a breather right around there, and the chorus sticks in my head for that reason. "Fly on the Wall" is the opposite - it's a great song but I always skip it.

I seem to remember Dave Gregory saying that he thought the album needed more production, a bit more to the arrangements. It is pretty stripped-down and there's room to do more, and maybe if they'd taken it farther it would have more of that patina of "greatness," but I'm glad they didn't. For one thing I just love the album as it is, and for another, every album that came after it was a bit of a loud mess in one way or another. I don't think they ever truly got the hang of using lots of instruments.

Xpost it's the other way around, LFF was recorded for go2

I don't think they ever truly got the hang of using lots of instruments.

don't really love either of these albums all the way through tbh

Apple Venus was the one with the "realistic" synth orchestra right? That was gross.

Except for the fact that they were played by a real orchestra (and fairly amazing), yes.

Damn I have a really distinct memory of it sounding sampled. Maybe they were just miked weird. Now I feel guilty for holding it against them all thus time!

Maybe you heard "Demo Venus" or whatever it was called

The Big Express and Oranges & Lemons may sound overloaded with sound at first, but it all makes sense after a while.

Probably my two favorite XTC records. Skylarking is great too, especially the version with the perfect Mermaid Smiled rather than the over-obvious Dear God. Anyway, Black Sea wins.

I'm really split on Apple Venus, half of that is like their best album ever, but I really dislike the middle section of the album (outside of "Greenman" which is one of my top 5 XTCtunes)

My three favourites are Black Sea, Skylarking and Nonsuch... I get a lot out of every XTC album, but those three are kinda like the three that I would rescue from the fire/take to the desert island etc.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

REJOICE! \o/

Right on. It's frustrating, because Settlement without the filler (which is what "Melt the Guns" feels like) would easily be Black Sea's equal, or at the very least, a pastoral angle on Black Sea's rawk.

But after Black Sea, they never really rocked again. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but the gripping dynamic of this particular unit of particularly agitated musicians was gone forever.

Everyone wins!

Sorry I missed this one, but I'd go with Black Sea, if only as it's a bit more clangy.

But after Black Sea, they never really rocked again.

I'd argue that the solo on Books Are Burning is one of the great classic rock solos, but maybe.

But after Black Sea, they never really rocked again.

Nonsense...."No Thugs in Our House" (English Settlement), "Wake Up" (Big Express), "Across This Anthead" (Oranges & Lemons)

AntHEAP

I love "Wake Up," but those other two (along with everything on Oranges & Lemons) always fell flat for me.

Really? "No Thugs.."? I love that goddamn song.

yeah me too tbh

I wouldn't describe 'Across This Antheap' as "rocking", either.

"Earn Enough for Us" too.

Plus the Dukes, obv

you guys are suggesting some weird pretty non-rock-y stuff imho. I don't think Tarfumes is entirely wrong that they ditched the aesthetic of Black Sea for the most part - the slashing guitars, the stuttering rhythms, the frenetic energy, etc. they didn't really go there again. some of the stuff on Big Express maybe comes closest.

Black Sea is the way that it is because that particular line-up of the band (Partridge/Gregory/Moulding/Chambers) had such an undeniable chemistry as a unit and were playing together a lot as a live band, so you get an energy and urgency on Black Sea that they couldn't replicate on their post-Settlement studio records, no matter how good the drummers they used on those recordings were/are. That, and Partridge seemed to want to move away from that particular approach to recording/style of music on the records starting with Settlement.

yup to all that

only "No Thugs" comes close to rocking out as hard - "Wake Up" feels a little more stitched and calculated than anything on Black Sea. obviously not really a knock on later XTC but they definitely lost the "live" sound pretty suddenly afterwards.

Yeah, definitely agree regarding 'Wake Up'... there's a rigidity in the way that the track has been recorded that contrasts with the live band feel on Black Sea. Not to knock the track, because I like it a lot, but you can definitely tell it was a studio creation rather than the result of a band playing together.

I wouldn't describe 'Across This Antheap' as "rocking", either.

Compared to, say, anything on albums including and after Nonesuch it does.

hard question to answer, Black Sea is pretty much perfect in it's (relatively) narrow scope, English Settlement is more ambitious and contains some all-time moments, along with a wealth of songs that reveal more every time you hear them, and yet as an album it does that double LP thing where it really has you then it loses you which is a shame because there are some amazing songs at the end. Only track I'd outright cut is probably "Leisure" though there are a few I wish were shorter. Also I think both albums are obnoxious in particular ways, but Black Sea actually is more annoying than I remembered. when I first got into the band I asked my uncle about them since he's pretty hip to this stuff and he said "oh they're the ones who did that Generals and Majors song right?" and then he proceeds to sing it in the most annoying way possible, actually not unlike how Colin sung it live. I love the song but he has a point.

was interesting to learn that XTC actually had a bunch of hits despite not really being a household name. reading about them online you'd think only Senses & Dear God made a splash.

"Travels in Nihilon" is my favourite XTC song and one of my favourite-ever songs

was interesting to learn that XTC actually had a bunch of hits despite not really being a household name. reading about them online you'd think only Senses & Dear God made a splash.

i still hear 'generals and majors' and 'mayor of simpleton' and 'king for a day' in local stores all the time, they seem like mainstays of slightly hip retail playlists

only on ILM could 26 people be so wrong

otm @frogbs

I was going to say that I prefer Black Sea — and it is their rockingest record, which is my sweet spot -- but see that it too has some of that characteristic annoyingness that also comes up on English Settlement. Still, many really great songs on both and texturally I think they never topped Runaways, Jason and the Argonauts, English Roundabout, Snowman. Fretless bass + 12-string are super important on this one, and I don't think they ever were as important later (though I could be wrong).

On the other hand, to me at least it inaugurates a pastoral vibe that takes over on the last two records (which I can't deal with at all), though is magnificent on Skylarking (especially the original version with the perfect Mermaid Smiled).

thing is i adore both albums and they are my favourite band ever basically, but if i had to rank the albums black sea would probably fall into the back half. it's not as diverse as - well most xtc albums really, not least those either side of it. it's an album of superior power pop + cuba and travels as excellent diversions (those two and optimism's flames are my favourites). english settlement has only one track it could arguably do without (leisure obv) but that still leaves 14 tracks i adore. but while both of my two least favourites on black sea - language and towers - are better than leisure, that's still two relatively minor tracks i might be tempted to skip now and then. and most xtc albums don't even have that many.

"Living Through Another Cuba" is the only song on the album that annoys me ymmv

otoh "No Language in Our Lungs"? Best XTC song ever.

Could live without all of Side 3 from "English Settlement" tbh, although "Knuckle Down" is OK I suppose. "Down in the Cockpit" can go too.

"Language" and "Towers" are my two favorite tracks on the album! but then I usually skip fgti's favorite. another no consensus band

i also have always loved "burning with optimism's flames"

yeah was always surprised that one wasn't a single as well

I remember being quite unimpressed with the second disc of English Settlement whereas Black Sea has good songs all the way through

as Tom mentions it's really Side C that's the problem, I mean Side D is as great as the rest, though I know some people get annoyed with "Down in the Cockpit"

what's frustrating about that is they had some really good B-sides/non-album singles floating around at this time, "Tissue Tigers" especially. maybe "Punch and Judy" and "Blame the Weather" could've made it as well

settlement bums me out. it has the highs of the best xtc records and the most opportunities for the band to stretch out to 5 minute pseudo-jams, but for me has too many ultra corny songs and sounds, similar to mummer and big express and everything post dukes.

i know i'm an outlier in that i think leisure is great - including the atonal sax part illustrating the headsplitting boredom causing mental illness (this seems to be a metaphor for partridge's impending desire to retire but it will make him crazy) and the lazybones tin pan alley interpolation at the end. but i usually skip runaways, guns, africa, knuckle down, and cockpit. runaways in particular bothers me: the don't crys just make me wince, the song is trying to be sad or something and i just don't buy the emotion in it, and more importantly, the theme of the song is just so conservative and mother knows best, stay at home, don't rebel, that's too worrisome. it seems to declare this entire album's project is to reject xtc's punk's rebellious spirit and connect with the past.

one thing settlement has going for it... it seems to encompass all the seasons. you can put it on in spring, summer, winter, fall. i think i'd like it more if they included some of the b-sides as album tracks, particularly over rusty water, heaven is paved with broken glass, punch and judy, and tissue tigers. some more spikiness would do the album well, i think.

never got that impression from "Runaways" myself, it's very clear that the subject is running away from a very abusive situation

A "no consensus band" is right. I dig Leisure, too, fwiw.

fwiw I dig a lot of XTC's "annoying" songs but not that one for some reason. I'll even defend "Wounded Horse"