Plus the Dukes, obv
― Mark G, Tuesday, 27 August 2013 20:59 (eleven years ago) link
you guys are suggesting some weird pretty non-rock-y stuff imho. I don't think Tarfumes is entirely wrong that they ditched the aesthetic of Black Sea for the most part - the slashing guitars, the stuttering rhythms, the frenetic energy, etc. they didn't really go there again. some of the stuff on Big Express maybe comes closest.
― what's up ugly girls? (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 27 August 2013 21:05 (eleven years ago) link
Black Sea is the way that it is because that particular line-up of the band (Partridge/Gregory/Moulding/Chambers) had such an undeniable chemistry as a unit and were playing together a lot as a live band, so you get an energy and urgency on Black Sea that they couldn't replicate on their post-Settlement studio records, no matter how good the drummers they used on those recordings were/are. That, and Partridge seemed to want to move away from that particular approach to recording/style of music on the records starting with Settlement.
― Dog Man Star took a suck on a pill... (Turrican), Tuesday, 27 August 2013 21:27 (eleven years ago) link
yup to all that
― what's up ugly girls? (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 27 August 2013 21:30 (eleven years ago) link
only "No Thugs" comes close to rocking out as hard - "Wake Up" feels a little more stitched and calculated than anything on Black Sea. obviously not really a knock on later XTC but they definitely lost the "live" sound pretty suddenly afterwards.
― frogbs, Tuesday, 27 August 2013 21:47 (eleven years ago) link
Yeah, definitely agree regarding 'Wake Up'... there's a rigidity in the way that the track has been recorded that contrasts with the live band feel on Black Sea. Not to knock the track, because I like it a lot, but you can definitely tell it was a studio creation rather than the result of a band playing together.
― Dog Man Star took a suck on a pill... (Turrican), Tuesday, 27 August 2013 22:08 (eleven years ago) link
I wouldn't describe 'Across This Antheap' as "rocking", either.
Compared to, say, anything on albums including and after Nonesuch it does.
― Alex in NYC, Tuesday, 27 August 2013 22:08 (eleven years ago) link
I mean, it ain't Motorhead, but there's a bit of edge there.
― Alex in NYC, Tuesday, 27 August 2013 22:09 (eleven years ago) link
I remember being disappointed the first time I heard Wasp Star because it seemed like they were trying to do a stripped down, live band feel again, only with some kinda stodgy, un-rocking songs.
― amaze-ing platypus hat (Eight Model Play), Tuesday, 27 August 2013 22:11 (eleven years ago) link
Had Dave Gregory split by that point?
― Alex in NYC, Tuesday, 27 August 2013 22:20 (eleven years ago) link
I pretty much abandoned ship after Nonesuch.
Yeah, I think he left when they were partway through preparing Apple Venus vol 1, he'd already done some arrangements for it, and didn't contribute at all to Wasp Star IIRC. Possibly why it sounds relatively sloppy by XTC standards.
― amaze-ing platypus hat (Eight Model Play), Tuesday, 27 August 2013 22:22 (eleven years ago) link
― Alex in NYC, Tuesday, August 27, 2013 10:08 PM (13 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
I'd agree with that, but we're not comparing it with what came after Nonsuch!
― Dog Man Star took a suck on a pill... (Turrican), Tuesday, 27 August 2013 22:24 (eleven years ago) link
sloppy?! not really a term I associate with this band. like, ever.
― what's up ugly girls? (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 27 August 2013 22:25 (eleven years ago) link
Well like I say relatively sloppy, by their standards. But maybe 'sloppy' isn't the right word, i don't know.
― amaze-ing platypus hat (Eight Model Play), Tuesday, 27 August 2013 22:26 (eleven years ago) link
Like Frogbs said, after English Settlement they didn't have that live band sound anymore, but all the albums had this lush, glossy, ultra-precise 80s production. And then Wasp Star didn't really have the live band feel or the glossy production?
― amaze-ing platypus hat (Eight Model Play), Tuesday, 27 August 2013 22:32 (eleven years ago) link
Here's what David Gregory played on Apple Venus...
Easter Theatre: mellotron, acoustic guitar, keyboard programmingFrivolous Tonight: piano, synths, Mellotron, backing vocalsGreenman: keyboard programming, synthYour Dictionary: piano, cello chartsI Can't Own Her: piano, synthsHarvest Festival: pianoFruit Nut: synths, acoustic & electric guitars, organ, mellotron
Partridge did quite a fair bit of 'string arranging' on Apple Venus (as can he heard on his original demos for the album).
Gregory wasn't involved in recording Wasp Star.
― Dog Man Star took a suck on a pill... (Turrican), Tuesday, 27 August 2013 22:32 (eleven years ago) link
Ah, I didn't realise he'd played that much on Apple Venus, I'd thought he left not long after they started recording it, and sort of already had one foot out of the door for quite a while before that. I think I remember in one of the books about the band Gregory talking about hearing 'Playground' for the first time and cringing, he didn't like the arrangement or recording and felt that the band was suffering for his absence? I think that was gist of what he said, anyway.
― amaze-ing platypus hat (Eight Model Play), Tuesday, 27 August 2013 22:37 (eleven years ago) link
― Dog Man Star took a suck on a pill... (Turrican), Tuesday, August 27, 2013 5:27 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Yeah, this is pretty much what I was getting at.
And it's not that I don't like any post-Black Sea XTC, and some of my favorite XTC is their least rocking ("Grass," for one). But the agitated dynamic of those musicians in that format was gone. What replaced it was sometimes better, sometimes not.
― Shart Week (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Tuesday, 27 August 2013 22:47 (eleven years ago) link
Yup, it would definitely have been interesting to see how Chambers would have handled the Apple Venus material!
― Dog Man Star took a suck on a pill... (Turrican), Tuesday, 27 August 2013 23:34 (eleven years ago) link
They did crank it up a few times after Black Sea (add to the list "Funk Pop a Roll," "Reign of Blows," "Garden of Earthly Delights," "Merely a Man," "Crocodile"), but never for more than a song or two per album, and none of it has the abandon of Black Sea.
And I'm convinced that the reason Wasp Star sounds so unfinished is the absence of Dave Gregory.
― Hideous Lump, Wednesday, 28 August 2013 02:59 (eleven years ago) link
I can appreciate the arguments ppl are making in favor on BS, but ES is just on a totally different level for me. I really like all the songs people complain about in this thread, and LOVE the rest. Something about the production really works for me, it shimmers timelessly whereas Black Sea just rocks a la 1980 wiry postpunk. IMO.
― money, chicken and other DNA (sleeve), Wednesday, 28 August 2013 04:17 (eleven years ago) link
^^this
― which can be sold for meat if they are boys.. (sorry guys) (imago), Wednesday, 28 August 2013 05:49 (eleven years ago) link
The problem with Wasp Star isn't sloppiness, it's that it sounds like a bunch of demos. For all the flak this band gets for having fussy arrangements (a charge I would agree with sometimes), going stripped down on Wasp Star really didn't do them favors. And that could be because of no Gregory, yeah.
― Vinnie, Wednesday, 28 August 2013 13:51 (eleven years ago) link
The problem with Wasp Star isn't sloppiness, it's that it sounds like a bunch of demos
In fact, it doesn't sound at all like the outstanding unreleased demos from Andy's "Fuzzy Warbles" series. If it had stuff like "Sonic Boom", "Ship Trapped In The Ice" and "The Bland Leading The Bland" on it, it would've been an excellent album. But it's got Andy's worst song ever, "The Man Who Murdered Love", among other very, very weak tracks. It doesn't sound like demos, it sounds like poor songwriting. (I'll rep for Colin's last good song, "Boarded Up" though.)
― Gerald McBoing-Boing, Wednesday, 28 August 2013 14:17 (eleven years ago) link
I never checked out those demos, didn't realize there was something there worth checking out heh. I think about half of the songs on Wasp Star would have been improved with better arrangements - "In Another Life", "Stupidly Happy", "Wounded Horse". The songwriting is on the weaker side, true, but the arrangements sound like they were dashed off quick, like they went with the first idea they had rather than trying different approaches. Not a fan of "Boarded Up", but at least that's a case where the bare arrangement suits the material.
― Vinnie, Wednesday, 28 August 2013 14:48 (eleven years ago) link
Man, I don't get the hate for "Melt the Guns" at all. I have no problem with the lyrics or their sentiment, but that aside, it's a fantastic piece of music. Very proto-Animal Collective - is that why?
― flappy bird, Monday, 2 May 2016 03:19 (eight years ago) link
It's just that it's so damn repetitive.
― Austin, Monday, 2 May 2016 03:32 (eight years ago) link
I like guns but it's a good piece of music.
― _Rudipherous_, Monday, 2 May 2016 03:44 (eight years ago) link
I don't like because the chorus is dogshit
IMO it's a standard-issue issue example of overly irritating/quirky Partridge/XTC
― Master of Treacle, Monday, 2 May 2016 04:26 (eight years ago) link
Yeah, now that I am listening to it, it's got good things going on but it has bad things going on too (like the excessive Partridge quirk). Hadn't listened to it for a while. Chorus is more neutral than negative for me though.
― _Rudipherous_, Monday, 2 May 2016 04:29 (eight years ago) link
The opening riff/progression is weak in the first place. Allows for all the XTC cliches. That's basically the entire song.
― Master of Treacle, Monday, 2 May 2016 04:31 (eight years ago) link
This has probably been touched on already and is nothing new but jesus, English Settlement is way too long.
I know there's sequencing issues touched on already but....a little of Andy Partridge (as good as he is at his best) goes a long way.
― Master of Treacle, Monday, 2 May 2016 04:37 (eight years ago) link
So the "Black Sea" demos on the new deluxe release are mostly uninteresting and sound more like rough mixes. The 'early version' of "Towers Of London" is a couple of minutes longer and the 'unused single remix' of "Rocket From A Bottle" sound almost the same.
The most interesting stuff is the unreleased material: Pearl, Holding The Baby, Monkeys In Human Skin Suits, Spy In Space, Walking To Work, Jumping The Gap, and Ban The Bomb. They're fun to hear though nothing as crucial as stuff found on the Fuzzy Warbles series. With the release of these there's very few tracks I know about that haven't shown up officially or online.
― Gerald McBoing-Boing, Tuesday, 12 December 2017 03:31 (six years ago) link
Pearl has always been a favourite, I enjoyed the new mix too. But yeah, I think most everything is out there now between bootlegs, the old cassette releases, fuzzy warbles and the reissues, all that remains are the 3295642015986 songs that AP has left unfinished on a hard drive in his shed.
― MaresNest, Tuesday, 12 December 2017 11:28 (six years ago) link
I'm guessing that it would be such a shame if he didn't finish some of those.
― Gholdfish Killah (Turrican), Tuesday, 12 December 2017 19:17 (six years ago) link
Doesn't his shed have its own thread?
― Action of Boyle Man Prompts Visitor to Stay (Tom D.), Tuesday, 12 December 2017 19:24 (six years ago) link
Holy shit, I think this is the only live recording of "Melt the Guns" out there. Uploaded 5 months ago. Incredible set
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vv9dXo9-zrA
― flappy bird, Tuesday, 6 February 2018 05:57 (six years ago) link
XTCParadisoAmsterdam, Netherlands March 8, 1982Soundboard pre-fm version Andy Partridge was only 10 days away from his stage fright breakdown in Paris.01. Runaways02. Jason And The Argonauts03. Melt The Guns04. Snowman05. Ball And Chain06. No Thugs In Our House07. Senses Working Overtime08. All Along The Watchtower09. No Language In Our Lungs10. Towers Of London11. Making Plans For Nigel12. Living Through Another Cuba13. Generals And Majors14. Real By Reel15. Sgt. Rock (Is going To Help Me)16. Life Begins At The Hop (With Hans Devente on Backing Vocals)Not recorded / missing are the first three songs, played that evening: Bushman President (tape); Respectable Street, Burning With Optimism's Flames.
Soundboard pre-fm version
Andy Partridge was only 10 days away from his stage fright breakdown in Paris.
01. Runaways02. Jason And The Argonauts03. Melt The Guns04. Snowman05. Ball And Chain06. No Thugs In Our House07. Senses Working Overtime08. All Along The Watchtower09. No Language In Our Lungs10. Towers Of London11. Making Plans For Nigel12. Living Through Another Cuba13. Generals And Majors14. Real By Reel15. Sgt. Rock (Is going To Help Me)16. Life Begins At The Hop (With Hans Devente on Backing Vocals)
Not recorded / missing are the first three songs, played that evening: Bushman President (tape); Respectable Street, Burning With Optimism's Flames.
― flappy bird, Tuesday, 6 February 2018 06:01 (six years ago) link
The Quietus: 'English Settlement' turns 40
― Portsmouth Bubblejet, Sunday, 13 February 2022 19:17 (two years ago) link
good excuse to listen
― roflrofl fight (voodoo chili), Sunday, 13 February 2022 20:28 (two years ago) link
Great article
― frogbs, Sunday, 13 February 2022 21:13 (two years ago) link
It's a very good article, but
Certainly, nobody talks about what a good single album English Settlement might have made.
I'd say the only good song left off the 10 track single LP version is "Yacht Dance", and some of the excluded tracks ("Leisure", "Down in the Cockpit") are terrible, good riddance.
― Halfway there but for you, Monday, 14 February 2022 00:48 (two years ago) link
yeah that bit made me raise an eyebrow too, people in fact talk about that all the time. though tbf it's more of a "had enough material for 3 sides" sort of double
had they replaced Leisure and Cockpit with Tissue Tigers & Blame the Weather it would be just about perfect
― frogbs, Monday, 14 February 2022 04:51 (two years ago) link
Drop some of the more irritating finger-pointing Andy Partridge material and we're talking.
― since dozzell was a fixture (Tom D.), Monday, 14 February 2022 11:59 (two years ago) link
I love "Leisure", "Down in the Cockpit", and "Knuckle Down", which I often see people single out as a weak track. It's such a good album, hard for me to cut anything, though the b-sides frogbs mentioned would have been great additions too. Even "Fly on the Wall", a track I used to skip, has grown on me
― Vinnie, Monday, 14 February 2022 12:50 (two years ago) link
Some of the irritating finger-pointing Andy material (Melt The Guns, No Thugs) is my favourite, and I wouldn’t have them off the album for anything. Very good article. A quibble: the writer’s characterization of Generals & Majors as “a goofy disco rewrite of Paperback Writer” is way off the mark in about 3 dimensions, and moderately accurate in only one.
― war mice (hardcore dilettante), Monday, 14 February 2022 13:14 (two years ago) link
Leisure is great you fools
― imago, Monday, 14 February 2022 13:20 (two years ago) link
None of the b-sides have ever sounded like they belong on there. Leave it alooone
― PaulTMA, Monday, 14 February 2022 13:47 (two years ago) link
“no thugs” is either the second or third best song on the album. i think “cockpit” is fine and “leisure” is good, but “melt the guns” is too much for even me, a guy who genuinely loves “living through another cuba”
― roflrofl fight (voodoo chili), Monday, 14 February 2022 14:02 (two years ago) link