Play Me Some Simpin, Mane: Drake - Nothing Was the Same

Well for a start Katy Perry hasn't really been that influential? LAdy Gaga would probably be the better comparison if we're going there, but omnipresence in hiphop (a competitive sport in so many ways) and pop are fairly different things. Hiphop isn't the same as it was before Drake entered the game, and a lot of that has to do with Drake. Can you say that about Perry?

And I'm not in any way arguing that you can't criticize success - I do it all the time myself - but I STILL say we're past the point where we can belittle Drake because he obviously heard 808s & Heartbreaks and picked up a few tricks from Trey Songz.

Also, this thing about Hold On We're Going Home sounding just like Adorn? To the extent that it does that should be a good thing (to most people), right?

lol you haven't been reading pop stan message boards if you think pop isn't a competitive sport. though music as competitive sport is a somewhat basic angle tbh, there's little logic to it.

i would argue that the things which have changed about hip-hop are traceable more to kanye, if you're talking about middle-class interests and introspection. also, game-changing is not necessarily good! i do not defend the game-changing that led to the past few years of guetta bosh over r&b in the charts, for instance.

also it seems like you're not really taking on board the many, many criticisms of drake that have been outlined itt, it's certainly not only for his obvious influences.

To the extent that it does that should be a good thing (to most people), right?

"adorn" as performed by drake = one giant NO THANKS

i'm pretty sure i've seen katy perry stans argue her significance btw. i can't stand her but you can probably make a case for anyone as popular as she is

Pop is a competitive sport too of course, but hip hop has always been ABOUT who is on top in ways that pop has not. That's the part of the game that won't change. And Kanye is obviously the other guy who has been massively influential. Wayne would be the third, although at the moment he's not really in the game anymore. Idk, I like what rap has become because of those guys. It needed change, or else we would be listening to Pusha T all day long I guess.

What are these many many criticisms of Drake btw and why should I take account of them? I mean, the guy is far from perfect. It's just that there's been so much critical ressentiment surrounding him for so long now and it's kinda getting to the point where I think his undeniability is more interesting than the complaints about his rapping and singing and whatnot. I like his rapping and singing. I wouldn't pitch it against Jay-Z in his prime but I'd take it over, say, 80-90% of the other guys who are out at the moment.

I see way more automatic critical adoration tbh.

There are plenty of criticisms that have nothing to do with his voice or influences or even softness. Did you not read Katherine's great piece? People find him skeevy because his "sensitivity" is posturing, because he's unable to sketch out any of the characters in his songs (especially the women), ie his songwriting is poor, because his own problems - ie the things he makes the focus of his music and the means by which we're expected to identify with him - are horribly shallow and boring and basically because all of this means his much-vaunted sensitivity rings completely false. There's plenty else, this is just off the top of my head on my phone! And drake stand never ever engage with those criticisms of him

Man I hardly ever identify with ANY of the rap artist I listen to. Universality is not the issue. Why is this such a problem with Drake? If Barry White had wheezed "I want your hot love and devotion" I'd certainly love it so why shouldn't Drake be able to say it - in a genre where one doesn't even normally say those kinds of things. It has nothing to do with fandom. I am not a Drake fan, yet I'm struck by how angry you all are at him. Yeah, he's a douche. He knows he is a douche. He has given us new - passice aggressive as Al says - ways of being an asshole in rap. I applaud him for that.

*s

**?
***passive

I need to read these things before I post them. Sigh.

"He knows he's a douche" is the WORST defence both in art and irl. That makes it NO better!

Why should we praise someone whose artistic persona = passive-aggressive douche? Being more pass-agg and douchier than anyone else is not an impressive accomplishment.

Well, it works for Kanye and it works for Drake. If Drake had been simply a nice young fellow no one would have found him very interesting. Unlikeability/unsympathetic traits is pretty much a prerequisite for any rap star. You all tend to treat him as if he is trying to date your daughter or something.

Unlikeability/unsympathetic traits is pretty much a prerequisite for any rap star.

Yeah that was the route to success for Will Smith there. Maybe more seriously, what kind of essentialist fantasy are you embracing here?

Will Smith was the best you could do, huh? Sorry, these are pragmatics, not essentials.

actually painful to watch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUSp9npIvuE

Definitely painful to listen to, lol.

Well, it works for Kanye and it works for Drake

Nah, aesthetically it stopped working for Kanye in 2010.

Longneck, this is what I get from you:

*asshole drives by skillfully in sleek top of the line car, intentionally crushing bunnies*

You: "See? Isn't that something to be proud of?"

Us: "...no?"

You: "Well it is and the gas mileage is great too."

*asshole drives by skillfully in sleek top of the line car, intentionally crushing bunnies*

You: "See? Isn't that something to be proud of?"

Us: "...no?"

You: "Well it is and the gas mileage is great too."

Us: "...no?"

You: "At least the asshole was AWARE he was an asshole!"

Oh right, forgives all sins.

The concept of the asshole rapper is that foreign to you, huh?

drake's relationship to his assholeishness is so much more disingenuous and unpalatable than most, this is again something that has been said before.

also rihanna might be a good comparison point in terms of a legitimately game-changing ubiquitous artist (though drake is by no means the megastar she or even nicki are) who can also legitimately be criticised for both a) the shitness of a lot of her output b) the eye-rollingly cringe nature of the persona via which she's attained her ubiquity

like really an artist being a ubiquitous game-changer should be the start of the conversation, not a final argument

I love Rihanna. Sorry folks.

Is it that much of a consensus that Drake is an insincere douche? It seems like that's the one thing everyone for sure agrees upon, but it seems to fly in the face of the guy being generally liked by his contemporaries. Obviously his music is idiosyncratic and many songs dive into his insecurities, perhaps (Marvin's Room) to such an extreme degree that it might seem prurient to some, but to me, at least, that codes more as a guy who's figured this part of his life out to the extent that he can write about it.

deej, I certainly don't consider The Chronic and Illmatic as prototypically insecure albums, but I think the late careers of those artists may shine a little light on how hungry they were to impress. I also haven't been a Drake fan from day 1 - I actually quite disliked the guy until Take Care won me over. Now it's at the point where I'm dropping 80 bucks to go see him stadium with Miggy and Future. (Those two contributed to my splurge choice a bit I suppose...)

The reason I situated Drake back in what the perception of him was in 09 is because the perception has completely changed but I don't think the music really has. NWTS is probably more like So Far Gone than his other albums, and dropping hashtags is the only really significant shift in his rapping that I can hear.

longneck are there any successful artists you'd actually criticise hard? you really seem to be saying that success is its own validation

I think one thing we're missing regarding the whole Drake/Katy Perry/Rihanna significance discussion (which is just a little silly imo) is that both Katy and RiRi are fairly fungible commodities. They leave, someone else will occupy their chart slot with a pretty similar song. Think it's fair to say that Drake occupies a fairly unique role, of his own invention to boot. I'll say the same of Nicki though, for sure.

"Longneck, why do you eat at McDonald's?"

"They are successful."

"Yes but--"

"THEY ARE SUCCESSFUL."

They leave, someone else will occupy their chart slot with a pretty similar song

i don't think this is true at all - i mean they have their imitators, sure, but no one is checking for rita ora or buying into miley's white-rihanna reinvention

and tbh i remember when katy first emerged assuming she just wouldn't fit into the pop landscape as it was then

and without wanting to bring this back to influence i think shipz covered why drake isn't that "unique"

I was a big fan of Kanye and Wayne who thought 808s and "Lollipop" were hugely disappointing turning points in their careers, so that stuff becoming the blueprint for their biggest successor and really the whole next 5 years of the genre is just depressing to me, if I was gonna wake up one day and go "no wait this stuff is actually awesome" it probably would've happened by now.

Lex, are you playing stupid now? It's not about whether or not you could critisise someone hard or not, it's about the terms of the critique. I criticise succesful artists all the time. For instance, I totally detest Eminem and everything he stands for. But this is about how we criticise Drake. Ship's review is well written but his criticisms aren't new at all, they're pretty much the consensus among everyone who follows Noz on twitter.

Unless you don't think I listened to the album and responded to it honestly, what's the issue?

I definitely think you listened to the album and wrote honestly about it. My point is that your review pretty much summed up most of the objections to Drake from non-REAL HIPHOP people. I've shared a few of them myself. I just don't think those points are very convincing anymore.

...to who?

To me?

non-real hip hop people

Longneck, the realest hip-hop people there is.

Lol. I'll be dat.

now that's a phrase I haven't heard in a long time. A long time.

But your reality, how do we know of it?

Longneck's point is legit though; as I've said earlier, rappers in the game right now generally tend to like and respect Drake. Just look at the OVO Fest lineups he assembles every year. Those who make a point out of objecting to him (Common, DMX) come off as dinosaurs idolizing the good old days of a now-antiquated "REAL HIPHOP".

Lol I just had a discussion with someone who said Drake couldn't possibly make a classic album because he addresses girls in his songs. That ain't REAL hip hop.

"He knows he's a douche" is the WORST defence both in art and irl.

yep such an easy cop out

also this idea that drake is so self-aware of his douchiness?

Still, one of the things that people find both equally engrossing and just plain gross about his music is how he reinterprets the stories of others, dragging them into his own narrative without their consent. I ask how women react to him when he mentions them. "They love it. I'll get girls that hit me up like, 'Oh, that's how you feel?' Whatever. They love it. They hang up the phone and be like, 'Ah, I'm hyped!" When I compare this practice to Cam'ron's old tactic of repurposing voicemails from angry ex-lovers as skits on his albums, Drake cuts me off. "That's different. That's malicious. I never do that to girls. Every girl, there's some heartwarming sentiment there, even if it's talking about how we didn't work out. It maybe jogs their memory. It's a good thing. My phone starts blowing up every time an album comes out. Tomorrow will be one of those heavy AT&T days for me, for sure."

They love him anyway! he's so blessed!

sick neg, bro

"whatever. they love it."

drake is obvi a douche

i do think that he has a pretty unique sound at this point. synthesis is ok ... its not like he sounds like kanye

also al not liking lollipop is crazy imo

the charitable reading would put that "whatever" as a placeholder for other things these women say to Drake on the phone rather than a comment on how he feels about what they're saying to him but it's still hilariously douchey that he would say "whatever" instead of "etcetera" or "and so on" in that scenario