can't believe ilx has no lostprophets thread

Was reading Neil Young's book recently and he had quite favourable words for Charlie's musical skills.

They're not confusing them with Mansun, are they?

This was a half-decent read too: http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/charles-manson-today-the-final-confessions-of-a-psychopath-20131121

xpost

I saw some of Hitler's paintings, they're a bit rub but he's still better than me at painting.

But that's not the point, right?

Manson's a much better singer than me, but my guitar playing is better

i'm definitely a finer batsman than chairman mao zedong

lol

deems is prob a better striker than marlon king. or at least in and around the same level.

striker of footballs sure

a rain shall come

Yah mo school Lavrentii Beria at Sensible Soccer

The woman who initially reported Watkins a few years back was on This Morning today, apparently.

http://www.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2013/nov/29/ian-watkins-art-sins-artist

http://news.sky.com/story/1176015/lostprophets-angry-disgusted-at-ian-watkins

Even as I've been writing this paragraph, a new tweet has appeared: "Did I just see a hashtag #IanWatkinsIsInnocent WTFFFFFFFFFFF"

expanded quote for context

Such was the level of vitriol aimed at Watkins that earlier this week, entirely accidentally, the hashtag ianwatkinsisinnocent started trending on Twitter. In fact, no one had been tweeting his innocence: the hashtag was coined by fans a year ago, when he was first charged. It began trending because people searching Twitter for Ian Watkins found it coming up in their searches, and leapt in to condemn the coinage. Even as I've been writing this paragraph, a new tweet has appeared: "Did I just see a hashtag #IanWatkinsIsInnocent WTFFFFFFFFFFF"

Sorry about this

http://scontent-a-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1477499_10152062219862673_2145596369_n.jpg

ok, that's almost funny

Don't want to do too much amateur analysis as the case is so fucked up.

However, I am wondering if the women giving him their children to abuse has something to do with a certain kind of fandom specific to LPs genre?

I was explaining to someone yesterday how LP weren't a 'fuck fuck fuck kill everyone with a gun' type of rock band (who you might 'expect' to be real sickos, maybe, whatever) but rather a 'Sometimes I feel so insecuuuuuuuuuuuure' type of rock band (and maybe to find the real sicko over in this genre instead was 'surprising', maybe, whatever).

Watkins, like a lot of lead singers in this genre – 'emo' is probably inaccurate but covers similar types - is supposed to be a 'voice' or 'leader' for the depressed fans, someone who understands them. That's a different relationship to the one where fans just think of their favourite band as 'cool' or 'great', right?

If this specific type of fandom exists, and these women had that relationship to him, maybe that's how he was able to convince them. It seems like it would be a magnet for vulnerable people.

This also requires adults to still be fans in a very teenage way, of course. But 'emo' (again not an accurate genre label but it's the closest I know to whatever LP are) is a scene that people stick with in quite a frighteningly serious way, well into adulthood

"Don't want to do too much amateur analysis as the case is so fucked up."

should've ended your post there.

The other element to consider is that whereas in LP's heyday (which was 00-05, IIRC) in provincial British youth music culture there were two definite 'sides'. Numetal/pop punk/emo/similar, VS garage/hardcore/r'n'b/hip hop.

But then the numetal type stuff was very quickly killed off by arrival of Strokes type indie and lots of bands whose names started with 'The'. So the rough aesthetic constellation that Lostprophets were part of suddenly shrunk to a footnote. British nu-metal being an offshoot of a big American trend, that just got chucked out in favour of a new one.

It's odd to notice that some people are still into nu-metal and emo in 2013: what if that scene's dwindled to a hard core of fans, who are the only people who would take LP/Watkins seriously? You've got the makings of a cult situation there – perhaps.

But like I said. Amateur analysis, and it all feels distasteful given the severity of the abuse. I'm leaving it here in case my ramblings about provincial British youth culture can get us any closer to working out how this kind of thing happens.

jim in glasgow, yeah you're right, but I wanted to say something more than just how terrible it all is. By all means point out idiocies in my posts – I don't offer the above with any kind of authority, just trying to make sense of it all.

There are every year in Britain numerous cases of men persuading women to let them abuse their children. Most of them are not rock stars, or rich, or famous.

yeah but what about all of the landfill indie bands who don't try to rape babies, thus lending support to cardamon's theory

But imagine being part of a scene even less valuable than landfill indie – that wd take some dedication and among these fans (besides a majority of totally healthy ppl who just really like a bygone genre of music increasingly cut off from current trends) one might expect to find some people who were so invested that it constitutes a vector for extremely abusive relationships with other, higher status, members of that scene

the codefendants in this place let him rape their children, why are you treating them like ingenues induced into transgressive behaviour rather than psychopaths in their own right?

CASE oy

if only these women would have heard arcade fire

There is a possible analogue with Polanski if you replace the world of one specific music fandom with the world of 'the film world': both men have positions of power and status, in a demi-monde isolated from the rest of society

cardamon - your cultural studies analysis is clumsy and inelegant at best

the codefendants in this place let him rape their children, why are you treating them like ingenues induced into transgressive behaviour rather than psychopaths in their own right?

Not attempting to downplay the latter part. But do we know what the balance was, between him and them, i.e, do we know yet to what extent he induced them? And again, say they needed no inducement and they are just that type of psychopath, how did they end up interacting with Watkins specifically, instead of the abuse happening in some other context

if you analogize it with something as nebulous and wide as 'the film world' you lose whatever tendentious argument you had with respect to the specific dynamics of the provincial british emo-metal-trash scene

Michael B, point me in the direction of some good studies of abusers and I will read them. I was under the impression that there's a fairly common pattern where, as I said, abusers 'have positions of power and status, in a demi-monde isolated from the rest of society'.

Whiney, you know that's not what I'm saying

I mean I dunno if we were talking about Charles Manson we'd talk about the world he moved in, and ask if answers could be found there?

*some of the answers

seeking the cause of something that happens across all barriers of age, class, gender and sexuality in a specific socio-cultural milieu looks like a fool's errand. as to why people commit these crimes - it may have some interest to us if it could provide useful evidence in the search for means to prevent future crimes. beyond that, i think it's irrelevant why somebody chooses to abuse a child. it's not an act that admits of mitigation.

Do you see my posts itt as arguing for mitigation?

I think that when we are confronted by the extreme fringes of human depravity (the subject of evil) it is natural to try and understand said events however clumsy, even if it helps no one but our own psychological relief. Cardamon: mine and our Arendt.

xp

yes, up to a point - trying to identify a milieu that makes abuse more likely to happen means saying some people have lower odds of not becoming abusers - but as i say, i don't think statistics bears that out at all.

i mean obviously if you want to help your own psychological relief go for it but i don't think causal accounts of criminality are v. fruitful in a broad sense

say watkins didn't exist, wonder if those two women have ended up doing this kind of thing anyway

that's not answerable in any way that isn't fantasy

yes, up to a point - trying to identify a milieu

Well, fwiw, what my posts were trying to look at was not the milieu so much as the power relationships

that makes abuse more likely to happen means saying some people have lower odds of not becoming abusers - but as i say, i don't think statistics bears that out at all.

Not what I intended to say, although if it looked like I was saying that, fair enough, glad ppl are calling it out.

Although if, again, we were talking about Charles Manson, I don't think identifying what parts of the world he moved in helped him to commit his crimes, would 'mean saying' that such crimes could only happen within the part of the hippy culture he inhabited. Likewise with Polanski, who had his enablers and powerful defenders in the film world, I don't think that would mean saying that only in the film world could such crimes have been committed. Or if we're talking about abusers operating in the military, or children's homes, or any other site of abuse. There's nothing there, in the specific location of a crime, that should make us comfortable or complacent because we move in a different world

There are every year in Britain numerous cases of men persuading women to let them abuse their children. Most of them are not rock stars, or rich, or famous.

My wife's work sometimes involves child protection cases and yes, this was pretty much her response when she first heard the story.

Speculating when you have none of the facts helps no-one. I can understand why ppl try to do it but I think it's a little tabloid esque

xp to me Also, are we going to just exonerate the world a criminal moves in and say, nah, there's nothing in the star/fan relationship that helps abusers, nothing in the military that does that, nah, the world is innocent, just these evil-doers come along

Hearing under way: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-25412675

the court heard Watkins had said in a phone call after admitting the charges: "It was mega lols. I don't know what everyone is getting freaked out about."

He denied being a paedophile and told the caller he only pleaded guilty to avoid a trial.

liveblog here for the prurient

"The involvement and responsibility of these offences is joint and equal and without the mothers would not have taken place."

this guy is truly a class act

Watkins is now said to be "ashamed and appalled by what has happened".

That's certainly what I would surmise from the phrase "it was megalolz. I don't know what everyone is getting freaked out about."