listening to "sorrow" now on headphones. it's pretty!
the lyrics are terrible though
― wat is teh waht (s.clover), Monday, 7 April 2014 21:50 (ten years ago) link
Danny Bowes OTM
http://blogs.indiewire.com/criticwire/criticwire-survey-groupthink
― What is wrong with songs? Absolutely nothing. Songs are great. (DL), Tuesday, 8 April 2014 16:29 (ten years ago) link
i keep forgetting to ask if the nyt guy has ever actually written about music before. all i hear about is the sitcom book.
― scott seward, Tuesday, 8 April 2014 17:36 (ten years ago) link
i've never really witnessed the sort of pile-ons those film critics talk about in music criticism. it's actually sort of odd that so few music crit beefs are actually about specific opinions about specific releases, there's very much a chacun à son gout mentality.
which isn't to say some forms of groupthink don't exist but it's less to do with critical assessment and more to do with "neutral" attention (sites reporting news about certain artists but not others), and it's nothing to do with poptimism or pop-leaning critics. (i assume this has been said, but just because megastars like beyoncé and t-swift get critical attention - though by no means consensus critical love! - this doesn't mean that pop as a genre is respected, let alone celebrated! pop artists beneath a certain level of success and/or without certain "credibility" dog whistle signifiers get absolutely no respect, and all the old rockist arguments get trotted out. for example, like taylor swift among uk critics prior to her latest album.)
― lex pretend, Tuesday, 8 April 2014 17:51 (ten years ago) link
Lindsay Zolandz's recent Tumblr post about critics and audiences made me realise that I'm glad that music critics engage in less navel-gazing than film critics and UK ones less than US ones. As a critic I love reading this stuff but it's irrelevant to all but a handful of readers.
― What is wrong with songs? Absolutely nothing. Songs are great. (DL), Tuesday, 8 April 2014 18:57 (ten years ago) link
I think the narrative voice in, say, The Wire's interviews is about as navel-gazing as anything, although with a bit of a stuffy academic air
― have a nice blood/orange bitters cocktail (mh), Tuesday, 8 April 2014 19:07 (ten years ago) link
I don't know, I don't think the film critic world is that much more "navel-gazing" than the music critic world at all. I think they both have certain insularities that will always look like "navel-gazing" to people outside that realm..
― good and relaxing like akon dont matter (intheblanks), Tuesday, 8 April 2014 19:55 (ten years ago) link
I mean, for example, in my experience, you're definitely more likely to find a pointless personal story in a music review than in a film review. Or a really moving personal story! But still.
how are we defining "navel gazing" -- staring at lint until you glean insights?
― Bryan Fairy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 8 April 2014 20:07 (ten years ago) link
yeah, it's maybe not really worth me starting an argument about. But having read a lot of music and film criticism, neither really seems "more 'navel-gazing'" to me, and I couldn't quite understand the blanket statement that music-critics engage in less navel-gazing.
― good and relaxing like akon dont matter (intheblanks), Tuesday, 8 April 2014 20:15 (ten years ago) link
By navel-gazing I mean interactions between critics and talk of a critical community, as in Lindsay's piece, not the tone of reviews. There's no way that music critics, at least British ones, would be asked to offer their insights into the response to a review like the EW Under the Skin one which sparked the Indiewire post. We'd just bitch about it on Facebook.
― What is wrong with songs? Absolutely nothing. Songs are great. (DL), Tuesday, 8 April 2014 20:31 (ten years ago) link
I definitely think that there's been a shift in critics' outlooks within the past decade that's a direct result of the rockism/poptimism debates of the early '00s, but Austerlitz dumbly simplifies that to "everyone now prefers anything popular to anything else."
― jaymc, Monday, April 7, 2014 8:13 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
I think what has had a bigger impact than those debates is social media (and more broadly internet publishing), which has increased critics' exposure to one another's work/tastes in a manner that has made it a lot harder for critics to doggedly plough their furrow and assume everyone else is wrong. In general, there's a lot more tolerance for the idea that, even if you don't like X, someone else doing so is just fine (I can think of notable exceptions to this rule, but that's what they are - exceptions). I don't think this was predominantly caused by the rise of "poptimism" but the more pragmatic matter of being connected to, and friends (or "friends") with, other writers who are talking about X. At a more basic level, everyone using social media is faced with these tastes divergences regularly - after you've realised that X friend is actually ideologically totally opposite to you, liking slightly different music seems like a minor point.
This is in contrast to when both critics and readers could more effectively self-select the kinds (and topics) of music criticism they would be regularly exposed to. And the less you actually read a type of criticism, the easier it is to assume the worst of it.
(kinda ironic given that in other ways the internet has facilitated so much self-selection - political news being an obvious case in point)
There's a reason this has been written by a relative "outsider" (a tv/film critic) - as much as we might say "hello, pitchfork", no pitchfork writer today would express the opinions contained in this piece.
I think there was a similar dynamic with the jazz guy's article - only someone who was in fact totally oblivious of popular music coverage 90% of the time could then airily put it all in the same box.
― Tim F, Tuesday, 8 April 2014 20:34 (ten years ago) link
xp I don't really know how one Indiewire piece, one that was really more about the idea of "groupthink" or "pile-on" reactions to critical writings in the internet age, is somehow evidence of the vast scope of film critic navel-gazing. It's not like there aren't plenty of reaction pieces, blogposts, or forum posts about controversial or misguided pieces of music criticism.
― good and relaxing like akon dont matter (intheblanks), Tuesday, 8 April 2014 20:47 (ten years ago) link
Honestly that's not really even unique to arts criticism at all, people are always talking about the way the internet changes the way people interact and react to written content (see Tim F's good point above). Don't know if that's really navel gazing.
― good and relaxing like akon dont matter (intheblanks), Tuesday, 8 April 2014 20:49 (ten years ago) link
good *points*, I mean
― good and relaxing like akon dont matter (intheblanks), Tuesday, 8 April 2014 20:50 (ten years ago) link
hi i wrote a piece about all thishttp://noisey.vice.com/blog/the-new-york-times-sucks-poptimism
― maura, Wednesday, 9 April 2014 20:33 (ten years ago) link
lol that url!
― I made a grave mistake with my balloon at the end (forksclovetofu), Wednesday, 9 April 2014 20:35 (ten years ago) link
Can't (and don't want to try to) speak for the state of music criticism, but I will say that as a reader, I often get the impression that writers are approaching from the point of view of "what will be most likely read" or "what will be understood by the most people". My sense is that most criticism is presented as a survey of something that has already been discussed a lot beforehand, and the review itself is recap, presented in general terms. I can see how this can seem hiveminded, and though I do also notice that, I don't think they are necessarily one and the same phenomena.
Furthermore, I don't think that strategy is inherently bad. Criticism *should* be written so that people can understand it, arguably especially to people who aren't terribly familiar with what's being discussed. One reason I can't stand a lot of art criticism is because I feel like it's written to only be understood by people in the art world, or other critics.
However, I also think it is much easier to write something that will be grasped by the most people...when you're writing about music or art that in and of itself has already demonstrated to appeal to the most people. There's an understanding that gets grandfathered in, so you don't have to write an intro paragrpah explaining where the music came from, or why it's being discussed. I also think that when writers approach things in this way, they forgoe (imo unfortunately) the personal perspective, and don't let me as a reader know why they in particular are writing about this music. In that way, user reviews at Amazon or messageboards are actually more valuable, even though you have to sift through a lot of them to get a broader sense of the music/album. /2cents
― Dominique, Wednesday, 9 April 2014 20:50 (ten years ago) link
xpost love the picture
― wat is teh waht (s.clover), Wednesday, 9 April 2014 20:52 (ten years ago) link
this popular "critic" gives silly answer to silly question in this trolling videohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=be_HVMwiBAM
― niels, Thursday, 10 April 2014 09:19 (ten years ago) link
"Poptimism" is not about blindly accepting every piece of radio-ready music that comes down the pike and hailing it as the next important thing. Instead, it's about throwing out the artificial distinctions that elevate Serious Mass-Appeal Music (usually made by men, and with guitars) over Frothy Bubbly Stuff (which often appeals to women as much as, if not more than, it does men).
All that needs to be said really.
― What is wrong with songs? Absolutely nothing. Songs are great. (DL), Thursday, 10 April 2014 11:13 (ten years ago) link
When I saw that the link was a video I knew it'd be that guy! xpost
― Evan, Thursday, 10 April 2014 11:43 (ten years ago) link
Has Anthony Fantano been discussed on ILM? Am I wrong in thinking he's one of the most popular critics in the game right now? Dude is regularly clocking over 100,000 views of his videos on YouTube.
― Position Position, Thursday, 10 April 2014 12:58 (ten years ago) link
how many of those are accidental clicks though
― j., Thursday, 10 April 2014 14:17 (ten years ago) link
I always thought it'd be funny if someone cut his hands off so that when he gesticulated it would just be these bloody stumps splattering blood on his walls.
― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Thursday, 10 April 2014 14:26 (ten years ago) link
lol someone sent me a really angry message after i deleted a sentence about tim hecker's virgins being anthony fantano's favorite album of 2013 from that album's wiki page
― dyl, Thursday, 10 April 2014 14:44 (ten years ago) link
A lot of gimmicky earnest bands come from his area of Connecticut.
― Evan, Thursday, 10 April 2014 15:13 (ten years ago) link
dude is terrible, would be nice w/ the bloody stumps for hands... also n1 @ dyl for deleting lame wiki-reference.
seems like the guy just repeats consensus opinions, but he comes off as the worst, maybe because he makes it seem as if all his opinions are "special" or "important" or "very clever" or just cool when obv they're not lol...
keeps showing up in my related videos on youtube, accidentally saw a few of his "reviews".
― niels, Thursday, 10 April 2014 20:22 (ten years ago) link
on a positive note his name reminds me of brian fantana :)
http://www.quotesworthrepeating.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Brian-Fantana-195x271.jpg
― niels, Thursday, 10 April 2014 20:24 (ten years ago) link
Anyone complaining about Fantano needs to do a YT search for coverkillernation. Holy fucking shit is that guy awful - the ultimate IMN (= Internet Metal Nerd). I think the worst thing about these guys is they're so stilted in their word choice and delivery, like they wrote up everything they're going to say without any thought for how those words would sound leaving someone's mouth as speech.
― Humorist (horse) (誤訳侮辱), Thursday, 10 April 2014 20:33 (ten years ago) link
Animal Collective’s music didn’t just accompany my life, it embodied and sometimes even validated it. Here was a band that not only seemed to think that the bare fact of existence was as fucked-up and confusing as I did, but also managed to replicate that confusion in sound. Biking across campus, I listened to Sung Tongs' alternate-reality smashes at pitiless volumes, staring at my peers, thinking, "Damn, it’s weird to have eyeballs—could I love an insect if insects had eyeballs too?" Naturally, my academic advisors thought I was on the right track.
― ▴▲ ▴TH3CR()$BY$H()W▴▲ ▴ (Adam Bruneau), Thursday, 10 April 2014 21:49 (ten years ago) link
oh god
― ביטקוין (Hurting 2), Thursday, 10 April 2014 21:50 (ten years ago) link
wait do insects not have eyeballs I am confused
― How dare you tarnish the reputation of Turturro's yodel (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 10 April 2014 21:53 (ten years ago) link
i like that guy. he's nice. and he ilxors, no? i forgive him his youthful indiscretions. even though i despise animal collective.
i also don't think that video guy is that terrible. he's got his thing. he's working it. he can talk coherently. he could be a LOT worse.
― scott seward, Thursday, 10 April 2014 21:57 (ten years ago) link
I apologize for bringing that up. Just these days, psychedelic pseudo talk is insanely grating to me.
― ▴▲ ▴TH3CR()$BY$H()W▴▲ ▴ (Adam Bruneau), Thursday, 10 April 2014 21:58 (ten years ago) link
nah, it's cool. it's public music writing on a music site. i've read other stuff of his that i've enjoyed is all. he's hardly the worst of anything.
― scott seward, Thursday, 10 April 2014 22:03 (ten years ago) link
That AC one is cuet IMO.
― 1 pONO 3v3Ry+h1n G!!!1 (dog latin), Thursday, 10 April 2014 23:13 (ten years ago) link
I mean, it's kind of bloggy and personal but I think if it were a different band this kind of writing would get an easier pass.
― 1 pONO 3v3Ry+h1n G!!!1 (dog latin), Thursday, 10 April 2014 23:15 (ten years ago) link
― scott seward, Thursday, April 10, 2014 10:03 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
a marked contrast to your reaction to the feeble woman writing about her husband's record collection
this is no better i wonder why you're cool with it
― lex pretend, Thursday, 10 April 2014 23:25 (ten years ago) link
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
― mattresslessness, Thursday, 10 April 2014 23:30 (ten years ago) link
does this have nearly the high profile the record collector blog did? is npr pimping this dude's writing? is there a dearth of male critics writing about music professionally and then you have maybe one of the more influential and powerful media networks in america promoting this garbage instead? does it play into existing sitcom worthy stereotypes? is it a concept blog? what npr shows does dude work on? which npr affiliate does he work for? is it in new york?
― balls, Thursday, 10 April 2014 23:44 (ten years ago) link
can't believe scott has the audacity to give someone a pass because he likes their other stuff
― ogmor, Thursday, 10 April 2014 23:49 (ten years ago) link
someONE or someMANGUYMALENOTLADYone?
― some dude, Thursday, 10 April 2014 23:59 (ten years ago) link
some DUDE obv
― balls, Friday, 11 April 2014 00:03 (ten years ago) link
"I mean, it's kind of bloggy and personal"
he has his own column. i think he can write whatever he wants. his tastes are hardly my tastes. but i think he's a decent writer. i mean he writes about one of my favorite groups here but then sadly he has to bring up vampire weekend which almost kinda ruined it for me but it's still a decent enough thing:
http://pitchfork.com/features/secondhands/9251-in-the-land-of-the-sophisticated-savages/
― scott seward, Friday, 11 April 2014 00:49 (ten years ago) link
and the record collection thing really was worse than most things to me. it just made me cringe a lot. is she still working her way through the stacks?
― scott seward, Friday, 11 April 2014 00:50 (ten years ago) link
yup
― waterbabies (waterface), Friday, 11 April 2014 01:21 (ten years ago) link
the feeble woman― lex pretend, Thursday, April 10, 2014 7:25 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― lex pretend, Thursday, April 10, 2014 7:25 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Nice. She should really rename her blog that.
― Position Position, Friday, 11 April 2014 11:08 (ten years ago) link
The author of that AnCo article is the best critic writing whose tastes rarely intersect with mine.
― Bryan Fairy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 11 April 2014 11:15 (ten years ago) link
Mike Powell is a great writer imo.
― What is wrong with songs? Absolutely nothing. Songs are great. (DL), Friday, 11 April 2014 11:18 (ten years ago) link