Miles' "On the Corner"

Tarfumes, you're also reminding me of the flame wars charted in Ben Ratliff's Coltrane: The Story of a Sound. Trane and Miles may have upset some more than outsider Ornette did, because those two were our guys.

Haven't read that yet, but yeah, Trane especially had to deal with a metric ton of bullshit, even before he put together his group with Pharoah, Rashied Ali, and Alice. People were calling Coltrane "anti-jazz" and "hate music" in 1961!

<3 cheesy technical fusion records of the 70s

peace suckas, gonna listen to some Return to Forever now

there are people still singing folksongs and playing banjos and shit everywhere. just the commercial engine behind has long since moved on to other things. doesn't mean that dylan "killed" folk

― marcos, Thursday, September 18, 2014 10:25 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I think that's kind of the point though -- not "killed" as a thing that people play and like, but "killed" the sense of a movement with a purpose. I mean folk music in the early 60s was not just a style of music but had a sense of being a movement. Dylan going electric didn't "kill" folk music but certainly dealt a blow to the movement's political aspirations or to a sense of cohesion around a set of ideas that folk music supposedly represented. I wouldn't be overly literal about the idea that an album can "kill" a genre, but it can be a signpost of a major cultural shift for sure.

<3 cheesy technical fusion records of the 70s

otm. grow up

I guess if you analogize musical movements to religions, it's kind of like having your major prophet suddenly come out and commit major heresies. I think it's harder for us now to conceive of the kind of weight these matters had for people at the time because we're very post-political about our music today and every style of music is just another style of music.

I kind of have my thing I get on about in re Dylan going electric though, bc I think it's one of the most misunderstood moments in pop music history, widely thought of as a bunch of crusty purists not liking loud noise or something. I mean, it's sort of that but there's more to it.

not "killed" as a thing that people play and like, but "killed" the sense of a movement with a purpose.

I am more amenable to this interpretation

peace suckas, gonna listen to some Return to Forever now

― The Reverend, Thursday, 18 September 2014 19:57 (21 minutes ago) Permalink

CHEA

it was already on its deathbed tbf - Miles is probably the only figure who could deal the deathblow (who else was there that was so universally revered/had been around so long? Coltrane was dead, Ellington/Basie already irrelevant, Mingus too combative, Monk had disappeared)

man Sextant really is the only thing that comes remotely close isn't it

feel like most of the other recs and fusion stuff of the era is either too tight or too rock oriented or something, but Sextant has a similar burbling sprawl

Yeah Sextant is a singular record

feel like this gets p close to On the Corner vibes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGaiNH7oGqk

the only (non Miles Davis) album that ever really reminded me of On the Corner was

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrV5bwWrAPc

nah. no horns.

well, it's a totally different thing in a lot of respects - except that it's avant studio concocted funk w/much improv at its base, and straddles many genres (or invents one) over the course of the record. the cool thing about On the Corner is that it ISN'T a Headhunters record, which is a lot more controlled, and indebted to Miles Davis's earlier stuff

some of Lalo Schifrin's early to mid 70s film scores have the On The Corner feel

There's some Eddie Henderson stuff that might come close, although closer to headhunters. I feel like I've heard some other spacey jazz funk/jazzy spacefunk by lesser-known guys that might fit as well

I like Sextant considerably more than On The Corner, fwiw

I'd guess it has already been mentioned on this thread but Larry Young's Lawrence Of Newark is a good one.

Seconding dow's rec upthread of John McLaughlin's Devotion. Larry Young is a strong thread that runs through a lot of these disorienting soundworlds.

I like Lawrence of Newark, but his organ work owes more to idk Les McCann or John Lord or something

McLaughlin solo I can't get with, too "rock"

d'angelo's "1000 deaths" def has an OTC vibe

said this before but the complete OTC sessions is just some of the most incredible music ive ever heard

I know right so why isn't there more of it I want more gimmeeeeeeeeee

I bought this as a teenager in an attempt to to challenge myself, although of course the end goal wasn't to s enjoy On the Corner, but to be able to *tell other people* how much I enjoyed On the Corner.

Anyway I have a lot less patience for this than his other records of the period, but damn "Black Satin" is a masterpiece and catchy as hell.

can't find a youtube of it but man Cosmic Invention's "Ryujin" feels *very* much like an On the Corner outtake

said this before but the complete OTC sessions is just some of the most incredible music ive ever heard

― marcos, Thursday, September 17, 2015 6:25 PM (1 week ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Listening to the complete Bitches Brew sessions kind of made me wonder if Teo Macero is overrated.

How so?

The Complete Bitches Brew Sessions is a monumentally mistitled set. It doesn't include the unedited parts that make up the finished pieces, like the IASW box does. Going by the material on the Bitches Brew box, there's no way to know exactly what Macero did or didn't do with what he was given, because we never hear what he was given.

The IASW set, on the other hand, includes the full takes of the pieces that were later edited/spliced/assembled for the LP; hearing those after the unedited takes, you can really see how masterful Macero's editing is.

yea i agree about the ISAW sessions, it is pretty amazing how macero distilled all that music into one seamless, beautiful LP

OTC on the other hand, hearing this music in its fullest on the complete sessions, i really don't think the edited LP is in any way an improvement. tbh now i feel like i am missing out when i play the regular LP., i don't really want to hear it anymore. the music is more powerful imo in its unedited state

/The Complete Bitches Brew Sessions/ is a monumentally mistitled set.

Totally agree, but I'm not sure how that leads one to wonder whether Macero may be overrated.

Which isn't to say he is or isn't. Even with all that has been written on this era, I still think his legacy is less of a "classic or dud" variety and more that he was the guy who somewhat introduced post-production in jazz and used it to add musique concrete elements and Third Stream compositional structure to the, er, brew.

FWIW, re. BB in particular, I'm assuming those unedited tapes simply don't exist.

Totally agree, but I'm not sure how that leads one to wonder whether Macero may be overrated.

Only because we don't have anything to compare the final/edited/spliced BB to in order to gauge exactly what he did/how he did it (which may strengthen or weaken one's view of whether or not he's overrated).

i think it'd be a mistake to label macero the "auteur" of the miles electric years, but i wouldn't downplay his contribution either. like, you hear that 73 set that was released on the latest miles bootleg series and you hear a band that is fully in control of a pretty singular set of dynamics. but some of those dynamics might just be derived in part from macero's more radical editing techniques. not sure if that makes sense... even to me!

Only because we don't have anything to compare the final/edited/spliced BB to in order to gauge exactly what he did/how he did it (which may strengthen or weaken one's view of whether or not he's overrated).

Well, we may not have much to compare it to...but thanks to the likes of Bob Belden and Enrico Palazzo (or whatever that guys name is), we do know where the edits are in tracks like "Pharaoh's Dance." Unlike the brutal jump-cut edits on, say, "Sivad" on Live-Evil or At Fillmore, Macero's editing on Bitches Brew is actually quite subtle – repeating little two-bar passages here and there. There's a whole run-down of this in the box set.

Do we know how Macero's edited version compares to the unedited track? No. But you don't have to hear the original tapes to know that the shape of the track—and the tension that's built—owes at least something to Macero's hand. And, in my view, the way it builds to a climax is one of my favorite things about "Pharaoh's Dance."

I'd also add: Macero may not have batted 1.000 with Miles but his panning and effects work on tracks like "Go Ahead John" is underrated.

michael henderson otm

yup

On the money and in the pocket

Henderson is such a monster, he doesn't get a enough credit.

I actually just listened to this box set for the first time in a while, I think I got a little burnt out of OTC for awhile, god it just sounded amazing all over again...love the Stockhausen Street Funk era, OTC, Get Up, Big Fun, et al...

Also, since I couldn't find a better place to put this the other day:

Sony, please give me a 74-75 live box set, please!

OTC was also weirdly kind of a hit with my 18 month-old

kids definitely respond to a good beat!
and yeah, a 74-75 live set would be welcome ...

I've been listening to scads of bootlegs on Youtube & Agharta & Pangea & Dark Magusbut IT ISN'T ENOUGH.

Seriously, I want to listen to every single scrap of sound this band ever made.

agreed

I am familiar with this impulse, it comes over me a couple times a year

this one is an early 74 fave:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZNIpVT7YvQ

Oh pro-tip! I don't think I've listened to that yet, I've mostly been rolling through '75. God this band was so good!

Also:
kids definitely respond to a good beat!
― tylerw, Tuesday, June 7, 2016 10:35 AM (21 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

She did this weird side-to-side shuffle/shimmy thing the second the record came on

OTC was also weirdly kind of a hit with my 18 month-old

OTC was also weirdly kind of a hit with my 18 month-old

Haven't played her OTC but was cranking Live Evil the other day and when Miles steps in on What I Say my two-year old said, "Trumpet!"

Listened to this yesterday for the I don't know how manyth time, but triple digits for sure. Still hearing sounds for the first time.