xpost tbf that was the end of bomb squad type productions so sure Grand Upright vs WB didn't end music but def changed the course
i kinda get this, but at the same time i feel like bomb squad type productions were already on the way out, thanks to the chronic etc. and also there was no world where this wasn't eventually going to be an issue as rap got more and more popular
― da croupier, Friday, 13 March 2015 20:59 (nine years ago) link
sorry by chronic i meant dr dre's production style, there's a good window of time between that, this case, and the chronic
it's possible that this case will lead to a more precedent-setting one more explicitly about "feel," but this ain't that case
― da croupier, Friday, 13 March 2015 21:03 (nine years ago) link
but Dre deliberately shifted his production style away from his previous sample-heavy approach in order to avoid lawsuits/payment of performance royalties (thus the invention of "interpolations" and Dre getting studio musicians to re-play P-Funk songs)
― Οὖτις, Friday, 13 March 2015 21:03 (nine years ago) link
xpost ("this case" being pharrell/thicke vs gaye, i mean)
rap producers have been paranoid about lawsuits from day one, since Rapper's Delight, often with good reason, and their production methods shifted according to that perception of risk
xp
― Οὖτις, Friday, 13 March 2015 21:04 (nine years ago) link
this is a shift that was already in motion before wb upright, which is my point - it's not like o'sullivan invented saying "hey that's my song you're sampling," it's the legal precedent. and jury cases aren't legal precedent.
― da croupier, Friday, 13 March 2015 21:05 (nine years ago) link
Remember too the Turtles vs. De LA Soul case, which addressed sampling re:recording ownership (since the sampled song in question was a cover).
― Don A Henley And Get Over It (C. Grisso/McCain), Friday, 13 March 2015 21:09 (nine years ago) link
but even if, rather than being overturned (which i find quite-plausible-to-likely), the jury verdict led to a judge saying "intent + vague similarity = infringement", it's still tickling to see record critics freaking out over music becoming less derivative because of it
― da croupier, Friday, 13 March 2015 21:10 (nine years ago) link
the 2010s - a decade where the first half sounded like 80s genesis, and the second half sounded like 70s genesis
― da croupier, Friday, 13 March 2015 21:13 (nine years ago) link
just two years before the chronic Dre sounded like
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiDti_Xnnmo
― raih dednelb (The Reverend), Friday, 13 March 2015 21:39 (nine years ago) link
it's still tickling to see record critics freaking out over music becoming less derivative because of it
agree this is ridiculous, but I think you're under-selling the degree to which legal issues impacted people like Dre's production styles. rap producers didn't make that production switch solely on aesthetic grounds
― Οὖτις, Friday, 13 March 2015 21:44 (nine years ago) link
looking back i wasn't being clear, but i didn't mean to imply dre was doing it solely for aesthetic reasons. when i said the change was already in motion, i meant because smart guys like dre knew you wouldn't get away with rapping over other peoples records for free forever
― da croupier, Friday, 13 March 2015 21:46 (nine years ago) link
ok yeah that makes more sense, the writing was definitely on the wall by the time of the Turtles lawsuit
― Οὖτις, Friday, 13 March 2015 21:47 (nine years ago) link
actually before then even - Rick James suing Hammer in '90
― Οὖτις, Friday, 13 March 2015 21:50 (nine years ago) link
as mentioned up thread, chic threatened to sue the sugarhill gang way back when
― da croupier, Friday, 13 March 2015 21:52 (nine years ago) link
i will say the bomb squad bricolage style was always going to be a novelty - and there are certainly plenty of examples of the "sample a lot of shit" aesthetic in the twenty years since the court case - it's not like the dust brothers stopped getting work, they just couldn't slap eight obvious beatles hooks together
― da croupier, Friday, 13 March 2015 21:54 (nine years ago) link
...and go gold without paying them, at least
― da croupier, Friday, 13 March 2015 21:56 (nine years ago) link
i mean fuck dj shadow
― da croupier, Friday, 13 March 2015 21:57 (nine years ago) link
yeah but that's different than the Bomb Squad/Dre/Dust Brothers/whoever else you wanna throw in there, who were more than likely all thinking they could make a credible legal defense based on *how* they were using the samples (ie not just lifting an entire song outright). I haven't really read anything authoritative on this subject but once sampling started to become central to rap I'd be curious to know if any of the producers were genuinely surprised with what they managed to get away with, however briefly.
― Οὖτις, Friday, 13 March 2015 21:57 (nine years ago) link
amen
my understanding is that there was this window in rap between old school guys figuring out that they couldn't get away with just rapping over/re-creating existing records, which led, in part to stuff like Run DMC and more drum machine+synth heavy compositions, but then shortly after that with samplers becoming cheaper and more powerful DJs were like "fuck it, I'm sampling that break Bambaataa used to play" and then it snowballed from there until enough old dudes smelled money and lawyered up. And then after that that heavy-duty bricolage-style became less frequent and more of a game of hide-and-seek between the producers and the sampled dudes (ie, you could get away with it as long as you could evade detection or made some deal up-front)
― Οὖτις, Friday, 13 March 2015 22:00 (nine years ago) link
yeah i just think it's weird to think bricolage was going to be the fore-front of hip-hop as it got more and more pop, on some level it was always going to lead to girl talk. the court case just confirmed you couldn't make a mint off other people's records without paying them.
and this court case at worst confirms that "feel" vs notes-on-the-page is an issue, and if you push that issue, don't put jackasses in front of a jury
― da croupier, Friday, 13 March 2015 22:05 (nine years ago) link
Old Dolph @alshipley 2h2 hours ago
Pharrell issues statement: "Haven't they heard me sing? I'm clearly ripping off Curtis Mayfield, it's his family that...uh don't print this"3 retweets 10 favorites
― dow, Friday, 13 March 2015 23:25 (nine years ago) link
I think the thing about all these panic-type Matos/Wolk "chilling precedent" pieces that rubs me the wrong way is that, taken to their logical conclusion, they seem to suggest that musicians don't actually own what they create. I love sampling and homage as much as the next listener. And as a musician myself, I love it even more as I would venture to say every interesting thing I've ever done has its roots in me massacring an imitation of something else.
But at the same time, I find it kind of odd to be arguing that this stuff is essentially in the public domain. It's not. "Rappers' Delight" is one example of a song that, quite simply, wouldn't exist without what Chic did. Same for "Blurred Lines," however much a departure the actual song is from the inspiration. And the Bomb Squad/ Dust Bros. ethos. The idea that the creators should owe something more than "a debt of gratitude" doesn't seem far fetched to me.
One thing worth noting that I didn't know until a few years ago is that advertising regularly addresses the issue of feel and style. If you want to do a car ad in the style of Randy Newman or Leon Redbone, you pay a fee. It isn't as much as using an actual song, but it is something.
None of this is to say that there shouldn't be some updating for the 21st-century. But I would also argue that the Dre examples upthread demonstrate once again how limitations really do breed creativity. And at the end of the day, when you think about how awful the industry has been to the actual creators of music product, rules that require artists to be paid for the commercial usage of their appropriation isn't something I think we want to be backing away from.
― Naive Teen Idol, Saturday, 14 March 2015 16:30 (nine years ago) link
If you want to do a car ad in the style of Randy Newman or Leon Redbone, you pay a fee. It isn't as much as using an actual song, but it is something.
iirc, Carlos Santana's lawsuit in 1990 set the precedent/terms for this:http://www.apnewsarchive.com/1990/Guitarist-Carlos-Santana-Sues-Miller-Beer-Over-Commercial/id-d2d871dcb18ffed5fe6403a1d2e7cb3c
― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Saturday, 14 March 2015 16:59 (nine years ago) link
tom waits sued frito-lay for the same thing, right? that was in '88
― bonkers candle ancestors (reddening), Sunday, 15 March 2015 01:17 (nine years ago) link
But advertising is different because a sound-a-like tricks people into thinking they're hearing the original artist, and therefore that the artist endorses ad syncs and that product in particular. No artist name is attached. Waits sued Frito-Lay for "voice misappropriation and false endorsement". Neither claim applies in the Blurred Lines case.
― Minaj moron (Re-Make/Re-Model), Monday, 16 March 2015 10:02 (nine years ago) link
but people might think Marvin Gaye had questionable ideas about sex!
― kriss akabusi cleaner (seandalai), Monday, 16 March 2015 10:07 (nine years ago) link
Objection sustained
― Minaj moron (Re-Make/Re-Model), Monday, 16 March 2015 10:13 (nine years ago) link
― dow, Friday, March 13, 2015 7:25 PM (3 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
lol this was retweeted yesterday by Kirk Mayfield, son of Curtis ;_;
― some dude, Monday, 16 March 2015 11:40 (nine years ago) link
Their's only one Curtis Mayfield funny how someone will try to be him and want to make a living off his hard wrk! #Fupayme #Mayfieldforever
Funny.
― how's life, Monday, 16 March 2015 11:52 (nine years ago) link
is ILM talking about this anywhere else:
http://defamer.gawker.com/kelly-clarksons-new-song-sounds-just-like-jimmy-eat-wor-1679262619
― gr8080, Tuesday, 24 March 2015 20:21 (nine years ago) link
this is hilarious
― DJP, Tuesday, 24 March 2015 20:26 (nine years ago) link
its insane
― gr8080, Tuesday, 24 March 2015 20:27 (nine years ago) link
it was definitely brought up in a kelly clarkson thread
― insufficiently familiar with xgau's work to comment intelligently (BradNelson), Tuesday, 24 March 2015 20:58 (nine years ago) link
There’s a thing that Marcel Proust referred to as supersaturation. When the past, present, and future all become very clear and high-definition and surround-sound in one moment. My supersaturation came right after I performed on the BET Awards [in June 2014]. I dedicated the performance [of the song “Forever Love”] to my ex. And I came home, and my best friend of 20 years, Craig Crawford, said, “I saw your BET performance.” And I said: “Oh yeah! What did you think?” You know — excited. And he goes: “I gotta be honest with you, buddy. You’re kind of playing yourself. You look like a sucker.” And it hit me that I’d lost my perspective. What I thought was romantic was just embarrassing. And he said, “You should just go away for a while.” So I shut everything down. I took some time off to be with my son, and to be with my family and close friends. And the more time I took off, the more everything became clear.
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 2 July 2015 17:49 (nine years ago) link
Going Thicke
― ... (Eazy), Thursday, 2 July 2015 17:53 (nine years ago) link
so...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CWksoNpXsU
― bla.p, Thursday, 6 August 2015 16:43 (nine years ago) link
Genericke but fine.
― ... (Eazy), Thursday, 6 August 2015 16:48 (nine years ago) link
nicki verse lmao
but this song is a jam
― bla.p, Thursday, 6 August 2015 20:45 (nine years ago) link
Incredible longread about how cursed this song was
― limb tins & cum (gyac), Sunday, 9 April 2023 16:06 (one year ago) link
There was a lengthy discussion in the “Pfork sux” thread
― hypnic jerk (morrisp), Sunday, 9 April 2023 16:21 (one year ago) link
really good article, one interestingly enough that seems to have mirrored the discussion of the song itself on ILX as it progressed over time (though conversation on it dried it after the trial mostly)
― Trout Fishing in America (Neanderthal), Sunday, 9 April 2023 20:33 (one year ago) link