The Runaways - classic or dud?

...

good pt carl

sorry, it was an ill-considered joke. Must have been channeling my father-in-law or something.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_tom65LKiE

Age: 14.

Brooke's exploitation began much younger - it's insane that she's a naked sex object in "Pretty Baby". you know, a nostalgic, romantic bildungsroman about a 12yo prostitute (written by a woman!) that I'm appalled even got made. baffled that it was even legal at the time.

if this is turning into a discussion about exploitation can it be moved elsewhere? i mean generally i am pointing the finger at the concept of objectification, and even listing examples of severe objectification as exploitation seems...exploitative under the circumstances.

speaking of, this conversation has reminded me of Beyond the Valley of the Dolls

fair enough

i was reading the holcomb story and getting increasingly surprised by how it turned into a paean to pro-life + then i looked at the url

I thought the same thing – but given the nature of the story, I wasn't entirely shocked it ended up there. The whole thing was depressing and manipulative.

To pull this back to rock, the internet is full of these stories. Pamela Des Barres' Lets Spend the Night Together documentary from VH-1 is on YouTube in its entirety, with bits from Lori Maddox talking about losing her virginity to Bowie at 13 or so and Cassandra Peterson (ne. Elvira) fleeing the room when Jimmy Page was trying to rape her. There's the whole saga of Sable Starr and the Stooges, a lot of which is covered in Please Kill Me.

To VG's point way upthread, once this all goes from "Hey, things sure were crazy back then" to "Dudes were raping girls and getting their parents to sign over legal custody of these girls" it begins to change how you perceive this whole era. Punk doesn't seem any more enlightened or liberated than the dinosaurs they ostensibly replaced.

what do you mean by "punk" there - I can't recall any similar stories about, say, the Clash or Blondie or Black Flag or the Go-Gos for ex.

Johnny Thunders + Iggy more than punk.

"Punk doesn't seem any more enlightened or liberated than the dinosaurs they ostensibly replaced."

There were definitely dinosaurs among the punks (or specifically people who aspired to the same sort of "rock star"-life as the dinosaurs).

I don't know about the Black Flag years specifically, but I remember one Rollins spoken-word tape where he tells this "funny story" about a girl who wouldn't do him, so he jacked off on her in her sleep.

And I haven't seen it, but according to descriptions I have read, the infamous Go-Go's tape features them penetrating a passed-out dude with a vibrator.

I wouldn't be surprised if there was more sexual violence in the punk scene.

I have been thinking a lot about Lori Maddox

I think that the problem with rock n roll success and stardom & the sexual power it affords/afforded to men is that for these v young girls there isnt always a vocabulary for it being wrong dangerous illegal and horrible bcz it falls under the umbrella of "attention" --- and there isnt a way to even talk about the dangerous illegal horrible - she begins her confessional with the words "Jimmy Page" & any wrongdoing disappears because he is a guitar god end of story

You know? Like even her own perception of him if she is a fan becomes distorted, this must be ok because the world has made him into Jimmy Fucking Page & he must be right because why else would they make him famous

idk a lot about her but I am just thinking this through in the mind of being 14

I don't know about Jimmy Page but I would have willingly gone along with Robert Plant when I was 14, and who knows whether I'd have the... whatever it requires to look back on that as an adult and call it out for the exploitation that it was.

yeah some kind of Stockholm Syndrome variant

"I wouldn't be surprised if there was more sexual violence in the punk scene."

Uh I would pretty surprised actually if there was more sexual violence (and exploitation) than in the previous era.

I wouldn't be surprised if there was more sexual violence in the punk scene.

I'm thinking back primarily to We Got the Neutron Bomb (which, btw, does include Fowley and the Runaways but does not, iirc, address Fuchs' rape) and once people like X, the Germs, Black Flag, the Weirdos, etc. were on the scene yeah it just doesn't seem like this creepy predatory sexual atmosphere permeated everything as it did a few years prior. a lot of the women are more assertive, openly hostile/aggressive in their own right, and there's a different kind of asexual/gender confusion/queer strain running through it, and the previous generation is (with a few exceptions lol Ray Manzarek) largely despised and scorned for their gross "rock star" ways.

Forgot about that Go Go's thing. That's a pretty sordid tale.

I think there was less 14 year old girl exploiting, but it would be extremely naive to paint the punk scene (any scene that is cast as primarily masculine, assertive women aside) as some kind of safe space where women were free of sexual violence.

even the Go-Gos incident cited above (I haven't seen the tape either) is kind of unprecedented/unthinkable in the previous era of just a few years prior, none of the Runaways were in a position of strength/authority that would have allowed them to sexually assault one of their roadies or male fans. (not that either scenario is a good thing! obviously) just that the politics of the scene def shifted.

xp

I don't think of the punk scene - particularly the LA and british punk scenes - as primarily masculine tho

certainly hardcore turned into that in the mid-80s but between '77-'82 or so? nah

Uh I would pretty surprised actually if there was more sexual violence (and exploitation) than in the previous era.

Not "more than", just extra unearthed.

Stuff that hasn't come to light.

like the last bazillion years of human history
i think it's safe to say that where there is objectification, there will be exploitation (and sometimes violence)
there is not a safe zone afaik, and if there is one please tell me where it is

yeah can't really argue w that

ll otm

And what changes?

http://flavorwire.com/528083/pop-punk-keeps-forgiving-sexual-harassers-to-the-detriment-of-its-teen-girl-fanbase

Fuckin' Front Porch Step. There was another one from the Warped Tour crowd last week as well, I think.

this photo

https://flavorwire.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/front-porch-step-warped.jpg?w=728&h=489&crop=1

there was also the story recently from the bass player for Enabler, which is awful

http://www.metalsucks.net/2015/07/13/former-enabler-bassist-accuses-frontman-of-physical-and-sexual-abuse-band-goes-on-indefinite-hiatus/

That's what I was thinking of - Enabler. But regardless, searching "sexual assault" on the AltPress website brings up a number of recent allegations.

A few years ago (2011) I went on tour with the band A Day To Remember (Florida pop-punk with heavy parts) in the UK, for an AP cover story, and we talked a bit about the fact that the majority of their fanbase was 15-17 year old girls. They were very careful about how they spoke, and acted, with/around the girls. Never anything but polite and friendly. It was even weirder for me, since they were in their mid-20s and I was six months shy of 40.

how is McElfresh a real name?

and the previous generation is (with a few exceptions lol Ray Manzarek) largely despised and scorned for their gross "rock star" ways.

Which is especially rich given what a fucking sexist he was ("women shouldn't be in bands" or something to that effect)

I'm thinking back primarily to We Got the Neutron Bomb (which, btw, does include Fowley and the Runaways but does not, iirc, address Fuchs' rape) and once people like X, the Germs, Black Flag, the Weirdos, etc. were on the scene yeah it just doesn't seem like this creepy predatory sexual atmosphere permeated everything as it did a few years prior. a lot of the women are more assertive, openly hostile/aggressive in their own right, and there's a different kind of asexual/gender confusion/queer strain running through it, and the previous generation is (with a few exceptions lol Ray Manzarek) largely despised and scorned for their gross "rock star" ways.

― Οὖτις, Thursday, July 16, 2015 5:06 PM (Yesterday)

this is definitely the sense i got of the UK punk scene from jon savage's england's dreaming. i haven't read viv albertine's book yet but i'm curious what her perspective was.

THEY BEAT ME WITH A BOARD
IT HURT JUST LIKE A SWORD

oh my GOD.

As I was getting DUSTED
I happened to get BUSTED

you don't sing and dance in juvie, honey.