Steely Dan: "Steely Dan's name has been popping up as a hip musical crush. Remember, this glossy bop-pop was the indifferent aristocracy to punk rock's stone-throwing in the late 70's. People fought

*thinks about it*

Let's expand on that

Babylon Sisters: old creep plies young girls with drugs
Hey Nineteen: same. although it's unclear if the guy got the girl or if it's all in his head
Glamour Profession: celebrity drug dealer watches two of his clients dance while he stands in the darkness
Gaucho: can you get socially cucked?
Time Out of Mind: can drugs cuck you?
My Rival: this is what cucking is, right?
Third World Man: can you get cucked by a hangover?

has anyone else heard the original version of "everyone's gone to the movies"? talk about a weirdass cuck song

sad!

I was about to link to the cuck piece. It's pretty funny, I think.

Lock this cucking thread, please

when will everyone understand Pretzel Logic is the best

― Wimmels, Thursday, August 11, 2016 1:35 AM (2 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yup.

Gaucho is fucking boring, IMO.

booooooo

Gaucho is fucking boring, IMO.

it was my least fave of the 70s records for years and then one day it just clicked. being in my 30s probably helped.

I can see how someone could find Gaucho boring. Still wrong, tho.

Pretzel Logic is fine but I much prefer albums 2, 4, 6, and 7

imagining a hi-NRG-ish remix of Gaucho now.. tempo doubled, massive kick drum, cowbells, random synth farts/fairlight stabs

I can't really fault the quality of the engineering or the the way the record sounds - that it's a very well-recorded album is pretty much a given. I can't really fault the talent of the musicians involved, either.

However, "production" doesn't always mean the way that a record sounds, it can be the methods involved in order to achieve the final result - and in this instance, as well-recorded as the record is, and as talented as the people involved are, the methods involved in gaining the final result led to a product that sounds incredibly lifeless. Hence, it is that rare thing - a record that sounds great but at the same time is badly produced. That, and I don't think any of the songs on Gaucho are particularly great.

Babylon, Glamour, Gaucho and TWM are all A+

Babylon, Glamour, Gaucho and TWM are all A+

― Master of Treacle, Saturday, August 13, 2016 6:08 PM (12 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

and Hey Nineteen

the glossy but enervated sound is crucial to why Gaucho is so brilliant imo, but I can see that it might not appeal to everyone

(xpost)

I don't really rate any of them. Dunno why I would listen to 'Babylon Sisters' when I could listen to the superior 'Home At Last' instead. For me, this band were at their finest from Can't Buy a Thrill up to The Royal Scam. Aja is a good record, although overrated in the Dan scheme of things, and I'd be quite happy to never hear anything from Gaucho again.

it's not overrated

don't know why you keep having to pull that card

nor why i get so touchy about it lol

Dunno why I would listen to 'Babylon Sisters' when I could listen to the superior 'Home At Last' instead.

Taking sides: "WELL - THE" vs. "SHAKE - IT!"

voting shake it

I've never been convinced by anyone's antipathy towards latter-period SD beyond "it's not for me".

i think Aja is overrated but only in the sense that Royal Scam and Gaucho are underrated. all are good albums.

Pretzel's barely more than half an hour and yet there's stuff like 'East St Louis'....'Buzz' and 'With A Gun'...

Gaucho against that? Not a chance. Latter all the way.

(the great stuff on Pretzel is still great etc etc etc)

"through with buzz" is the first time steely dan used strings on a record, and the only other time they used strings at all was for "FM".

"FM" is the only instance of steely dan using don henley and glen frey as backup singers.

RIP glen, chugging all night for eternity

However, "production" doesn't always mean the way that a record sounds, it can be the methods involved in order to achieve the final result - and in this instance, as well-recorded as the record is, and as talented as the people involved are, the methods involved in gaining the final result led to a product that sounds incredibly lifeless. Hence, it is that rare thing - a record that sounds great but at the same time is badly produced

this is all received wisdom. groove on "time out of mind" is full of life

Pretzel's barely more than half an hour and yet there's stuff like 'East St Louis'....'Buzz' and 'With A Gun'...

Gaucho against that? Not a chance. Latter all the way.

― Master of Treacle, Sunday, August 14, 2016 2:37 AM (3 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Totally otm. Pretzel is (by far?) my least favorite for all of the reasons you name.

I also never got deep into Katy Lied, but that one may still click for me, I dunno. I still return to it after all these years (sometimes involuntarily: my wife is a fairly recent Dan convert and is always playing that one in the car)

That said, I really, really love "Bad Sneakers."

Looking at this tracklist now, Pretzel has Rikki, Major Dude, and...that's about it. Maybe their only true stinker.

OK, you twisted my arm:

Royal Scam (personal choice--I acknowledge the objective superiority of Aja) > Aja > Can't Buy A Thrill > Gaucho > Countdown to Ecstasy > Katy Lied > Pretzel Logic

this is all received wisdom

Nope, it's a conclusion that isn't at all difficult to reach by doing something as simple as merely listening to the record.

Brad is arguing that "production" itself doesn't make a record lifeless any more than committing first takes to tape produces 'spontaneity.'

besides, I don't think the methods used to lay down Gaucho differ much from how they recorded PL.

I would argue that it does, for several reasons.

Gaucho is brilliant because of how "lifeless" it sounds. It's their only true concept album in a way. Probably my favorite for that reason alone although The Nightfly does the same thing even better.

And Pretzel Logic has Night By Night and Barrytown!

it's a conclusion that isn't at all difficult to reach by doing something as simple as merely listening to the record.

your post was a summary of every criticism levied against gaucho since it came out. if you had told me it was a composite of contemporaneous reviews of the record I wouldn't have blinked

formal precision in playing and recording =/= lifelessness

In that case then maybe, just maybe, the critics had a point.

There are numerous factors involved in the creation of a record, so many that it would take all day to list. Precise playing and engineering does not have to necessarily result in a lifeless product, but in the case of Gaucho it did, because of the way these methods were applied. It became simultaneously overcooked and sterile.

there's a glossiness to gaucho that feels a step beyond aja but i've never been convinced that it makes the record some alien object. "third world man" musically and lyrically depicts a kind of suicidal hangover and the glassiness is conveying part of the story

I think I've finally come around to thinking Gaucho is the best SD album. Babylon Sisters... that TJ verse...an exquisite song, where the "production " is key, the song is self-referential

Haven't spent time with Gaucho, but eventually came around on other Dan albums that I had heard were too slick, namely Aja and The Royal Scam, so I suppose I need to revisit this one as well.

whichever of the first 7 steely dan albums you consider the best, you're right.

lol

I think I used to love Gaucho a little more than I do now but it's still a much better record than Pretzel Logic, the only one of the initial 7 that feels rushed

also. Pretzel Logic = Village Recorders in LA, Gary Katz at the helm. Buncha LA session dudes kicking ass on all the tracks. Gaucho they tried to record in NY, and mostly did, but that was a super different environment than LA at the time, and they hadn't worked there in a long time. But as far as the application of the methods or whatever, it's the same people using their same skills - you can argue "the bigger budget meant they labored too long over the tracks" but that's a weird claim to make about a band who was never about spontaneity or the integrity of the live take or anything. their whole point was always using the environment of the studio to craft a meticulous track, which they pretty much perfect on Gaucho. I prefer Aja because I thin the songs are better.

it's weird cuz on the Aja episode of "classic albums" they talk about switching coasts every album... pretzel logic sounds sorta east coast cramped apartments to me whereas Gaucho is so evocative of driving through SoCal at night it's lysergic

maybe part of my lukewarm attitude towards Pretzel Logic has to do with how expansive and potential-laden Countdown To Ecstasy is.. and ecstasy has more badass skunk guitar solos

nah that's stupid, i wasn't even born yet when gaucho came out

But as far as the application of the methods or whatever, it's the same people using their same skills - you can argue "the bigger budget meant they labored too long over the tracks" but that's a weird claim to make about a band who was never about spontaneity or the integrity of the live take or anything. their whole point was always using the environment of the studio to craft a meticulous track, which they pretty much perfect on Gaucho.

Oh, I'd agree that Steely Dan were never really about spontaneity or the "integrity of the live take" - there seems to be some people here that have totally missed the point and seem to be getting the impression that this is some kind of "production" vs. "spontaneity" face-off. It fucking isn't.

I'll agree that the whole point of Steely Dan was about using the studio to make the best records they could possibly make, but they did not perfect their approach with Gaucho. They had already perfected their approach, and Gaucho was an attempt to go further than even this, resulting in a boring, tedious, overcooked and sterile record. They had already achieved the perfect balance of performance, production and songwriting elsewhere. Gaucho basically was an attempt to improve on something that couldn't be improved without having a detrimental effect on the final result, and it couldn't be more obvious from merely listening to the record.

Overrating Gaucho is one of the most storied of AJ ILX traditions, and has outlasted other now long forgotten tribal rituals like pretending Big & Rich weren't total ass

Haha all ilx traditions tho AJ ILX was my fav Backstreet Boy