The Who Vs. The Kinks

I was just thinking that a word I would associate with the Kinks but which never in a gazillion years would you do likewise with the Who is 'charm', lol.

'Dogs' is quite Kinks-like, i.e. it has charm..

Maybe that's why Townshend doesn't like it.

The thing about the Who, and I guess it's Townshend, is the empathy and generosity of spirit that permeates the music for me, in giving voice to the concerns and feelings of his audience. I feel like there's a meanness or nastiness to a lot of the Ray Davies worldview that would have appealed to me when I was 28 but at 48, it's just not so appealing. Maybe it's there and I just don't remember it, haven't listened to them in ages

Pretty much disagree with all of that!

I'm probably wrong about the Kinks, I should listen again, but wrong about the Who? How so?

You're not wrong, it's your opinion, I don't have such high regard for Pete Townshend personally. One of best guitar players ever, of course.

OK, thanks

have tried for many years to understand the appeal of the Kinks. it felt good to give up. I don't get them & never will.

I'm probably wrong about the Kinks, I should listen again, but wrong about the Who? How so?

― Iago Galdston

I don't think you're wrong about the Kinks. I love them, but Ray, you know, this is the guy who wrote "Hatred". He could be pretty vicious, although he was always meanest to himself and Dave...

Townshend has, I think, a more generous spirit, but also has the Meher Baba thing, which I look at with a great deal of suspicion.

Davies is the prototype bitter fuck imo. Townshend is a hippie but every once in a while he actually reaches apotheosis.

What's wrong with being a bitter fuck? A whole deal of rock icons are/were bitter fucks.

i love the kinks, like LOVE them

but i can't have them go up against the Who and live to tell the tale.

Ray is an incredible songwriter but I feel like every member of The Who pushed the boundaries of their "job description" so far that they kinda changed how we think of all those jobs, for better or worse - not just Pete, but Rog, Ox and Moonie. To me they were like music Magellans ... some of those maps didn't exist before

Not to downgrade the Kinks... it's just I get kinda passionate/nutty when I talk about the Who

The Kinks. They had better tunes although they never made an album as awesome as "The Who Sell Out" tbf

Because Keith Moon played "yump dump yump dump yabbadaba yump dump" at least once in every song and STILL sounded like a profound genius, the Who were a more complete deepening of music hall traditions and edge this.

xxxp Agreed. I was reassuring Galdston that he wasn't crazy for hearing a nastiness in the Kinks. But Davies (outside of Something Else) isn't top tier bitter fuck for me.

I think yall are overstating the bitterness of Ray Davies.

And seriously overstating the 'generosity of spirit' of Pete Townshend.

Voted The Who without hesitation - Sell Out is one of my favourite albums of all time, the early pop/freakbeat singles are classics and the stadium/concept stuff up to and including Quadrophenia is some of the best rock of its era. I disagree about the production complaints too - Who records from '67 onwards sound great to me, especially Tommy/Who's Next. Crystal clear and punchy. I should add a caveat though that I'm not much of a live albums guy so am less likely to compare them unfavourably to Live at Leeds or whatever.

I like The Kinks fine but Arthur is their only great album and I don't care about anything they did post-'60s bar a couple of songs. The music hall element is really off-putting especially, even something like 'Dedicated Follower of Fashion' I find really grating.

Also in terms of the difference between Davies and Townshend as writers, Davies comes across like a smart guy with interesting observations about life and other people, whereas with Townshend it feels more like he's still working through things. There's a lot of confusion and inner conflict that comes across in his songs and I guess that just appeals to me more. I wouldn't quite call it generosity of spirit but he had more of a desire to communicate with his audience I think.

And seriously overstating the 'generosity of spirit' of Pete Townshend.

― The Doug Walters of Crime (Tom D.)

he hit abbie hoffman in the face with a guitar, i think that was an act of profound kindness and generosity

Also in terms of the difference between Davies and Townshend as writers, Davies comes across like a smart guy with interesting observations about life and other people, whereas with Townshend it feels more like he's still working through things. There's a lot of confusion and inner conflict that comes across in his songs and I guess that just appeals to me more. I wouldn't quite call it generosity of spirit but he had more of a desire to communicate with his audience I think.

― Gavin, Leeds

townshend sounds like a guy who's working through things, ray davies sounds like a guy who's pointedly avoiding "working through things"

That's one of my problems with Townshend, it all ends up a bit Roger Waters, or vice versa. But, each to their own. He has got a sense of humour though, which is a good thing.

Thank you, Gavin, that is indeed more what I meant rather than generosity of spirit

And I remember the endless music hall numbers to be a real turn off, too. Like, there are a lot of them, right?

I think I like early Kinks a lot more than most people on this thread. It's true the early albums have a fair amount of filler but some of the singles and B-sides from '64-65 are just brilliant and to invoke the dreaded "influence" probably v important on garage rock/"freakbeat" not to mention the Who themselves.

Or to put it another way, All Day And All Of The Night >>> I Can't Explain.

All Day And All Of The Night = first RAWK tune

You Really Got Me, too

but some of the singles and B-sides from '64-65 are just brilliant

The singles are great, the albums are a bit feeble.

xp agree on early Kinks. The Songs We Sang For Auntie almost makes this the Kinks for me.

townshend sounds like a guy who's working through things, ray davies sounds like a guy who's pointedly avoiding "working through things"

― xiphoid beetlebum (rushomancy), Friday, November 25, 2016 12:00 PM (four hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this seems otm, I find Davies more compelling, though I agree that there's a sourness and cramped quality to his worldview (as expressed in his songs at least) and understand why some might find that off-putting

Generosity of spirit.

If you read Rotten's 2nd autobiography, there's plenty about how Pete supported John and various up'n'coming punks without getting any recog at the time.

Contrast that with Tom Robinson's dealings with Ray's Konk label...

Being familiar with the entire catalogs of both bands, these observations can be made regarding my favorite albums from each:

The Kinks' Muswell Hillbillies is a record that can be gone back to time and time again; it's brilliantly both concise and descript. While The Who Sell Out is both an innovative and rewarding enterprise, it's still mostly a "kiddie-record" by a band still trying to find their footing. In forty years, The Who will be relegated to any number of "Greatests Hits" compilations while The Kinks' allure will endure in those entire albums from their late-sixties peak.

You say the Kinks don't have a record like The Who Sell Out, I say The Who didn't have a record like Lola vs Powerman or Village Green or Something Else or Arthur

Again Kinks music for me all the way, the Who don't have that many memorable tunes for me sorry... but the Who as performers would win this and many battles.

Generosity of spirit.

If you read Rotten's 2nd autobiography, there's plenty about how Pete supported John and various up'n'coming punks without getting any recog at the time.

Contrast that with Tom Robinson's dealings with Ray's Konk label...

We're not talking about their personal or business lives though.

Why?

Because I'm a Lou Reed fan, you think I care whether an artist is a complete tool in real life or not?

It's funny though, I've spoken to two people who have personal experience of Townshend and Davies and both of them said they were wankers - though in different ways.

...but the Who as performers would win this and many battles.

― No longer active (Moka)

I would submit that "battles" are biased towards bombast, but then again, all comparisons are subjective and favor one side or another. The passage of time is one of very few measures that provides a perspective less influenced by "fasion". Whenever these "who's better" arguments arise, i usually try to imagine my perception some time in the future. Respect.

The Kinks' Muswell Hillbillies is a record that can be gone back to time and time again; it's brilliantly both concise and descript. While The Who Sell Out is both an innovative and rewarding enterprise, it's still mostly a "kiddie-record" by a band still trying to find their footing. In forty years, The Who will be relegated to any number of "Greatests Hits" compilations while The Kinks' allure will endure in those entire albums from their late-sixties peak.

― bodacious ignoramus

right, re-run poll in 2056. :)

Yeah to me the Who had not only found their footing by the time of The Who Sell Out, they were already pushing themselves in all kinds of ways beyond it.

A run of seven top ten hits did not establish a footing?

The Who were pretty established from day one imo. "My Generation" is a pretty solid debut album, with insane title track, lots of cool catchy pseudo-motown pop cuts, and some actually decent James Brown covers.

i don't see Greatest Hits being a thing at all in 40 years tbh. and if they are, The Kinks will have theirs too.

The Who have a lot of deep cuts, lots of singles that were kept off albums, lots of great b-sides and things. for me it's difficult to consider "The Who Sell Out" without including all those amazing extra tracks that got added on w the remaster because i never heard that album until then. i imagine in the future people discovering The Who will know all about "Circles" and "Pictures of Lily" and "Dogs" (a very Kinksy song) just as well as the proper albums.

It's been a pleasure to look at certain tracks from Tommy in isolation. I'm a fan of their early work, so certain tracks particularly work for me as a extension of where they were around the time of The Who Sell Out. Particularly fond of "1921," "Christmas," "Go to the Mirror," and "Sally Simpson."

I suppose you all know this but I didn't, how much the Kinks and You Really Got Me were a direct impetus to Townshend. The Mark Blake book on The Who quotes Townshend saying the Kinks had filled a hole in the scene that he had hoped to get to first...

Yeah, we've been trtying to 'unpick' all-day, and you have to remind yourself - they were doing this in 1964 !

Say what?

you guys are right, "establish a footing" was something The Who did far before Sell Out - i guess it would have been far more appropriate to say that The Kinks were well established before The Who were -- i.e. Sell Out from 1967 is The Who's 3rd proper record; same year, The Kinks were on their seventh.

The Kinks getting banned from touring America 1965-69 seems like a big overlooked factor here. The Who were constantly on the road during much of that time. so while The Kinks may have had more records they ended up w little to zero footing in the US after those first hit singles.

'All day and all of the night' I meant..

have tried for many years to understand the appeal of the Kinks. it felt good to give up. I don't get them & never will.

― though she denies it to the press, (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Thursday, November 24, 2016 4:07 PM (three days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is me, but about the who. thread is making me want to try again anyway though lol