The Who Vs. The Kinks

And seriously overstating the 'generosity of spirit' of Pete Townshend.

Voted The Who without hesitation - Sell Out is one of my favourite albums of all time, the early pop/freakbeat singles are classics and the stadium/concept stuff up to and including Quadrophenia is some of the best rock of its era. I disagree about the production complaints too - Who records from '67 onwards sound great to me, especially Tommy/Who's Next. Crystal clear and punchy. I should add a caveat though that I'm not much of a live albums guy so am less likely to compare them unfavourably to Live at Leeds or whatever.

I like The Kinks fine but Arthur is their only great album and I don't care about anything they did post-'60s bar a couple of songs. The music hall element is really off-putting especially, even something like 'Dedicated Follower of Fashion' I find really grating.

Also in terms of the difference between Davies and Townshend as writers, Davies comes across like a smart guy with interesting observations about life and other people, whereas with Townshend it feels more like he's still working through things. There's a lot of confusion and inner conflict that comes across in his songs and I guess that just appeals to me more. I wouldn't quite call it generosity of spirit but he had more of a desire to communicate with his audience I think.

And seriously overstating the 'generosity of spirit' of Pete Townshend.

― The Doug Walters of Crime (Tom D.)

he hit abbie hoffman in the face with a guitar, i think that was an act of profound kindness and generosity

Also in terms of the difference between Davies and Townshend as writers, Davies comes across like a smart guy with interesting observations about life and other people, whereas with Townshend it feels more like he's still working through things. There's a lot of confusion and inner conflict that comes across in his songs and I guess that just appeals to me more. I wouldn't quite call it generosity of spirit but he had more of a desire to communicate with his audience I think.

― Gavin, Leeds

townshend sounds like a guy who's working through things, ray davies sounds like a guy who's pointedly avoiding "working through things"

That's one of my problems with Townshend, it all ends up a bit Roger Waters, or vice versa. But, each to their own. He has got a sense of humour though, which is a good thing.

Thank you, Gavin, that is indeed more what I meant rather than generosity of spirit

And I remember the endless music hall numbers to be a real turn off, too. Like, there are a lot of them, right?

I think I like early Kinks a lot more than most people on this thread. It's true the early albums have a fair amount of filler but some of the singles and B-sides from '64-65 are just brilliant and to invoke the dreaded "influence" probably v important on garage rock/"freakbeat" not to mention the Who themselves.

Or to put it another way, All Day And All Of The Night >>> I Can't Explain.

All Day And All Of The Night = first RAWK tune

You Really Got Me, too

but some of the singles and B-sides from '64-65 are just brilliant

The singles are great, the albums are a bit feeble.

xp agree on early Kinks. The Songs We Sang For Auntie almost makes this the Kinks for me.

townshend sounds like a guy who's working through things, ray davies sounds like a guy who's pointedly avoiding "working through things"

― xiphoid beetlebum (rushomancy), Friday, November 25, 2016 12:00 PM (four hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this seems otm, I find Davies more compelling, though I agree that there's a sourness and cramped quality to his worldview (as expressed in his songs at least) and understand why some might find that off-putting

Generosity of spirit.

If you read Rotten's 2nd autobiography, there's plenty about how Pete supported John and various up'n'coming punks without getting any recog at the time.

Contrast that with Tom Robinson's dealings with Ray's Konk label...

Being familiar with the entire catalogs of both bands, these observations can be made regarding my favorite albums from each:

The Kinks' Muswell Hillbillies is a record that can be gone back to time and time again; it's brilliantly both concise and descript. While The Who Sell Out is both an innovative and rewarding enterprise, it's still mostly a "kiddie-record" by a band still trying to find their footing. In forty years, The Who will be relegated to any number of "Greatests Hits" compilations while The Kinks' allure will endure in those entire albums from their late-sixties peak.

You say the Kinks don't have a record like The Who Sell Out, I say The Who didn't have a record like Lola vs Powerman or Village Green or Something Else or Arthur

Again Kinks music for me all the way, the Who don't have that many memorable tunes for me sorry... but the Who as performers would win this and many battles.

Generosity of spirit.

If you read Rotten's 2nd autobiography, there's plenty about how Pete supported John and various up'n'coming punks without getting any recog at the time.

Contrast that with Tom Robinson's dealings with Ray's Konk label...

We're not talking about their personal or business lives though.

Why?

Because I'm a Lou Reed fan, you think I care whether an artist is a complete tool in real life or not?

It's funny though, I've spoken to two people who have personal experience of Townshend and Davies and both of them said they were wankers - though in different ways.

...but the Who as performers would win this and many battles.

― No longer active (Moka)

I would submit that "battles" are biased towards bombast, but then again, all comparisons are subjective and favor one side or another. The passage of time is one of very few measures that provides a perspective less influenced by "fasion". Whenever these "who's better" arguments arise, i usually try to imagine my perception some time in the future. Respect.

The Kinks' Muswell Hillbillies is a record that can be gone back to time and time again; it's brilliantly both concise and descript. While The Who Sell Out is both an innovative and rewarding enterprise, it's still mostly a "kiddie-record" by a band still trying to find their footing. In forty years, The Who will be relegated to any number of "Greatests Hits" compilations while The Kinks' allure will endure in those entire albums from their late-sixties peak.

― bodacious ignoramus

right, re-run poll in 2056. :)

Yeah to me the Who had not only found their footing by the time of The Who Sell Out, they were already pushing themselves in all kinds of ways beyond it.

A run of seven top ten hits did not establish a footing?

The Who were pretty established from day one imo. "My Generation" is a pretty solid debut album, with insane title track, lots of cool catchy pseudo-motown pop cuts, and some actually decent James Brown covers.

i don't see Greatest Hits being a thing at all in 40 years tbh. and if they are, The Kinks will have theirs too.

The Who have a lot of deep cuts, lots of singles that were kept off albums, lots of great b-sides and things. for me it's difficult to consider "The Who Sell Out" without including all those amazing extra tracks that got added on w the remaster because i never heard that album until then. i imagine in the future people discovering The Who will know all about "Circles" and "Pictures of Lily" and "Dogs" (a very Kinksy song) just as well as the proper albums.

It's been a pleasure to look at certain tracks from Tommy in isolation. I'm a fan of their early work, so certain tracks particularly work for me as a extension of where they were around the time of The Who Sell Out. Particularly fond of "1921," "Christmas," "Go to the Mirror," and "Sally Simpson."

I suppose you all know this but I didn't, how much the Kinks and You Really Got Me were a direct impetus to Townshend. The Mark Blake book on The Who quotes Townshend saying the Kinks had filled a hole in the scene that he had hoped to get to first...

Yeah, we've been trtying to 'unpick' all-day, and you have to remind yourself - they were doing this in 1964 !

Say what?

you guys are right, "establish a footing" was something The Who did far before Sell Out - i guess it would have been far more appropriate to say that The Kinks were well established before The Who were -- i.e. Sell Out from 1967 is The Who's 3rd proper record; same year, The Kinks were on their seventh.

The Kinks getting banned from touring America 1965-69 seems like a big overlooked factor here. The Who were constantly on the road during much of that time. so while The Kinks may have had more records they ended up w little to zero footing in the US after those first hit singles.

'All day and all of the night' I meant..

have tried for many years to understand the appeal of the Kinks. it felt good to give up. I don't get them & never will.

― though she denies it to the press, (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Thursday, November 24, 2016 4:07 PM (three days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is me, but about the who. thread is making me want to try again anyway though lol

i mean i get the appeal of the who as a performing act but the songs never reached me

kinks songs, at least when they got mannerist, are like perfectly formed jewels

i suppose the most beautiful Kinks song is "Waterloo Sunset" which is very lovely but imo "Sunrise" is even more crystalline and transcendent.

i would also put "So Sad About Us" next to any Kinks tune for sheer melodramatic power pop goodness.

"Tattoo" is otherworldly.

I Can’t Explain; Anyway, Anyhow, Anywhere; My Generation; The Kids Are Alright; A Legal Matter; Substitute; I’m A Boy; La-La-La-Lies; Happy Jack; Boris the Spider; So Sad About Us; A Quick One; Pictures of Lily; I Can’t Reach You; I Can See For Miles
I'm in awe of this run

Yeah, we did a 'singles run' thread some years ago, and I believe The Who won with that one.

.. Although there's a couple of not-singles there, but hey.

.. Although there's a couple of not-singles there, but hey.

Yeah these are just my faves from this period. I can never remember what was a single and what wasn't. I'm sure The Kinks have 15 songs from 64-67 that rival (or best?) this

i suppose the most beautiful Kinks song is "Waterloo Sunset" which is very lovely but imo "Sunrise" is even more crystalline and transcendent.

See, I don't get this at all, to me, "Sunrise" is drippy proto singer songwriter navel gazing sub Syd Barrett, yes, very nice but, so what? Waterloo Sunset is entirely on a different level, it's a fascinating song. I'm beginning to realise that the Who, like the Beatles and Led Zeppelin, are one of those British bands that Americans have an entirely different relationship with than Britishes.

Somebody explain just how wrong that description of "Sunrise" is. I can't muster the strength at the moment.

I've never even bothered listening to the lyrics, the sound of it is enough.

everyone voting in this poll should make sure that they take into account how awesome Starmaker/Soap Opera is before they make their choice imo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8laVs0aMWw

You say awesome, I say embarrassing.

It's unfair to put anything up against Waterloo Sunset. Signed, American Fan of The Who.

^this

I like both of these bands, at most of their canonical high points and at scattered moments during their respective careers, but also have lots of problems with the two of them as well and don't have enough skin in the game to really want to get in between the haters and the true believers and be shot by both sides.

Also, Tom D otm throughout thread, especially here:

/i suppose the most beautiful Kinks song is "Waterloo Sunset" which is very lovely but imo "Sunrise" is even more crystalline and transcendent./

See, I don't get this at all, to me, "Sunrise" is drippy proto singer songwriter navel gazing sub Syd Barrett, yes, very nice but, so what? Waterloo Sunset is entirely on a different level, it's a fascinating song. I'm beginning to realise that the Who, like the Beatles and Led Zeppelin, are one of those British bands that Americans have an entirely different relationship with than Britishes.

I'm curious to know what these common American and British perceptions of the Who are.

"Sunrise" is pretty experimental. it is very introspective thru the minimalism. the emotion of it is very strong. the first time i heard it, it was late at night, and it felt like i was transported to that place. a little crystal cave for a few minutes. a dainty, nostalgic, proto-emo pop song. "Waterloo Sunset" it much more conventional. not that this is a bad thing, i love the "Sha la la's" and all that. it's funny i feel like "Waterloo Sunset" is closer to something like "See Emily Play", a blurred futurist psychedelic depiction of dry English drama.

imo think the Kinks have stronger songs and more evocative melodies/lyrics than than "Waterloo Sunset". "Rosie Won't You Please Come Home" is up there as one of the most beautiful pop songs ever. "Something Else" is packed with beautiful experimental pop.

The Kinks did have a better garage rock sound. a kind of ramshackle Victorian Country & Western. The Who when they jammed were often in danger of approximating Blueshammer.