Songs that fool you about where the downbeat is.

hahahahahahahaha Jordan

try this as a guide to where the phrase is -- the tom hit is always on the "&" of 4 (switches to every other bar in the chorus, but is always in the same place, leads into the 1).

can we talk about another song for awhile or something, jfc

the time signature in this one always gets me, even though I don't think it's hard to discern where the 1 is exactly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yxbOsUtYNQ

For years, I had problems parsing where the downbeat in "Think Fast" by Meat Beat Manifesto was until the second half of the first verse:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkuKYKLJrX4

Now I hear it within the first few measures but that initial snare roll from the drum loop still throws me a little.

those both feel pretty natural to me, as James Brown-type displaced backbeat beats (i get it though).

here's one i have to really concentrate on to feel correctly until it becomes more evident later on. for me the danger is feel the kick drum on the upbeats, and the syncopated low tom part on the downbeats, but it has to be the reverse:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmLKGemM6_8

ooh that's a good one

hmm, the randomer one seems natural and instinctive to me, since the basic loop has clear accents on the 2 and 4.

Even weirder are Bonham's stick clicks, which allegedly were there to help everyone know where to come in. But they're inconsistent, and don't clear anything up.

Yes, they make it murderously difficult to play along. However, that's probably because, per Jimmy Page, "We tried to eliminate most of them, but muting was much more difficult in those days than it is now."

There are some really confusing turnarounds in the chorus to Locomotive by GNR:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=locamotive+guns+roses

The combination of drum films and Axl singing over the measure is really weird. The first time it happens is around 2:40.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOH2mE9UFSI

"shoki" is the only song that came to mind for me

Japan's cover of 'Ain't That Peculiar' has me searching for the one more times than a character in George Clinton's funk universe.

Like Black Dog for example, I have zero problems finding the downbeat in that song; just listen to the drum and know that Plant's sections in the verse are in a freer tempo than the instruments and the instrumental interludes in the verses have three eighth note pickups at the beginning and you're golden.

Come on, the rubato in the a capella vocal parts isn't what makes this hard to count. I'm not even sure that transcription really gets at how the metre is accented. The drums and guitar and both playing eighths on the first five eighth notes. Snare hits (and agogic accents in the guitar line) appear on the C on beat 2 of m. 18 (by his transcription) and the C on beat 3 of m. 19, with a bass drum hit on the first beat of the m. 19. It almost feels like a bar of 5.

Apparently Charlie Watts was fooled about where the downbeat was here -- he doesn't get on track until the second verse:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSGk3LeM56E

when mixed down, it falls into a clear, easy-to-understand 4/4

You asserted this before, but I don't know where you're getting the information. The article clearly states that the song was recorded with some players being told the one was in one place and others being told it was in a different place. It says nothing about this being altered in the mix.

The note choices for 'DAYS go by' just don't make sense to me as starting on the 1

Because it's a non-chord tone? I think it's just a neighbor tone going from scale degree one to three.

There's also an agogic accent on that note.

If you're referencing that wiki, that was just for the construction of the groove, and the vocal melody was written on top of it later on.

To my ears it would be both overly complex/awkward and kinda square if that's where the 1 was. It just makes perfect sense as the 3.

I don't agree. Hearing "Days" on the three means the vocal melody starts on the and of one and has continuous agogic accents on the three. Hearing "Days" on the one means there's a beat and a half pickup.

that was just for the construction of the groove, and the vocal melody was written on top of it later on.

A groove that's polyrhythmic and for which the singer undoubtedly chose one or the two possible downbeats.

one OF the two possible downbeats

the singer undoubtedly chose one or the two possible downbeats

yes, this. and i would argue that once he made that choice, he basically defined it for everybody else, especially we listeners, since it's only natural to follow him. his accents in both the verse (FIND) and chorus (DAYS) communicate that downbeat clearly to me. it is definitely a little weird (and unsettling and cool) in the first verse because of what the rhythm section is doing, but if you start at the first chorus and count from there, with "days" at your downbeat, the rest of the song snaps into place, with no need to add 2/4 bars anywhere, and it seems obvious to me in the exact opposite way it feels obvious to DJP, with the percussion simply playing an inverted rhythm on the verses.

then again, maybe it isn't the singer who gets to make the final choice of two possible downbeats. maybe it's us, and maybe we are all very obviously and equally right.

to me, the bass is very obviously marking the first beat of every other (odd-numbered) measure. I start my count from the first occurrence of the bass lick that repeats every 8 beats throughout the entire song

*should say, bass plays same rhythmic pattern all song, obviously there are two different 'licks' tonally
I'm listening to the live version from the second disc of the expanded CD reissue of The Name of this band right now as I write this, but I've heard the song enough times in every imaginable context to feel that this interpretation holds up

listening to the (slightly faster tempo) version from Stop Making Sense now... does it help to count the rhythm if you hear the verse as, essentially, a call-and-response between the bass and the vocal? notice they almost never overlap...

extending my count to the chorus: I think I hear "[rest] letting the" as measure 1 of the chorus, "DAYS" falls ~almost~ on the downbeat of measure 2 and "go" exactly on the accent beat of measure 2? does that sound right?

the Stop Making Sense version settles this issue

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGofoH9RDEA

xpost!!

This is approaching "sleep! That's where I'm a viking!" territory

lol.

but if you start at the first chorus and count from there, with "days" at your downbeat, the rest of the song snaps into place, with no need to add 2/4 bars anywhere,

Why wouldn't you start counting at the beginning of the song though? If you need a 2/4 bar to get from the first verse to the chorus the you're hearing it, but then there is no 2/4 bar from the second verse to the second chorus, that should be a tipoff that you're hearing it wrong.

And crut otm that the live version settles it, crashes on the 1 and everything.

I wish I could stand listening to the Talking Heads for long enough to weigh in on this.

haha I was expecting you to be the one dude who could settle this

Let's just get Reply All to make a podcast about this thread and have David Byrne settle it

Nahhhh the Stop Making Sense version is missing the key meter-changing element of the rhythm-guitar chorus addition on the recording. And doesn't the chorus sound weird as a result? like they're forcing it to stay 4/4? The way the rhythm guitar comes blasting in on beat 3 on the chorus is so destabilizing and key and I'm surprised [the tour guitarist] didn't pick up on it

But as I expressed earlier, Tina simplifies her bass parts so extremely on all the live performances that I'm always left disappointed in hearing them (in addition to the disappointment in myself for wasting time listening to Talking Heads)

I stick with the Eno-described "this song has two possible weightings" solution, but if pressed to notate this, there is no real reason to notate this in anything other than straight 4/4. The drums and bass don't change so fuck it

I just listened a couple of times and I think Tarfumes and Jordan OTM. For a danceable groove-oriented tune like this, it seems pretty counterintuitive to not refer to the drums and bass when counting or feeling the beat, and, like you say, they don't change. The way the guitars and vocals play against this is what keeps it interesting but that still requires feeling the basic beat in the first place. It sort of hurts my head to think of the metre shifting in the chorus to put "days" on 1.

I think that's the most I've enjoyed the song btw so thanks ILM!

For a danceable groove-oriented tune like this, it seems pretty counterintuitive to not refer to the drums and bass when counting or feeling the beat

I mean, it's a little different with e.g. Zep songs where the guitars are playing in 3 or 5 or 7 against Bonham's 4, but, in this case, where the vocals and guitars are still clearly in 4 and just accenting beat 3, "4/4 with syncopation" seems like the Occam's razor analysis.

Why wouldn't you start counting at the beginning of the song though? If you need a 2/4 bar to get from the first verse to the chorus the you're hearing it, but then there is no 2/4 bar from the second verse to the second chorus, that should be a tipoff that you're hearing it wrong.

au contraire, that was a tipoff to me that maybe i should re-evaluate how i was hearing the verse. when i start at the beginning of the song, i *do* hear the downbeat in a different place than where i hear it on the chorus. that was my point. but that chorus downbeat makes sense to me in the next verse, and i can then go back to the beginning and hear it that way. i don't think i'm hearing it "wrong" and i don't think you're hearing it "wrong" either. i think the song leaves itself very open to interpretation, as this thread clearly proves.

it feels like we're basically arguing what's the top and what's the bottom of an mc escher staircase.

It's nowhere near as tricky as some of the above, but I've always thought the intro to this otherwise pretty straightforward Clash song was weird:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdkuYVsJ7nM

I think "It's No Good" by Depeche Mode

That Clash one starts on beat 3.

I've often used 'Should I Stay or Should I Go' as a classic example of a drumless riff that starts on an upbeat, so it can be deceptive if you've never heard it before.

It's probably been mentioned already but 'Videotape' by Radiohead - the piano chords are syncopated, but the first chord doesn't fall on the "and" of "one and", it falls on the "and" of "four and" so the chords are always ahead of the beat.

Pyramid Song, sorta, in that sounds like a weird time-signature when it's just a slow, syncopated 4/4.

This one particularly is a funny one, because it has the ability to confuse a person where the "one" is for the duration of the entire song. Unlocking where the one is pulls the entire song into focus and makes the song sound as if it played completely straight.

(I count it like: one two three four five six seven eight, with a swung feel)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jySJWwyO5Vg

^ When this guy plays the pattern, you can hear the 4/4.

'Little by Little' has another syncopation trick, where the main riff sounds as if it should be on the "on" beat but is on the "off" beat instead.

this is a fun one to try to follow:

julie grant "stop"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kz0XOly6l0

this one from bee gees' 1st has always made me a little dizzy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JaUaIEh9F8

I've been trying to figure this one out for a while (the intro into the beginning of the song)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYfvzo331Pg

Sure, 'cause the piano chords are anticipating the downbeat by a 16th note

“Where Will I Be” by Emmylou Harris is one of these. Check out the released studio version vs either the Spyboy version or the alternate version on the expanded Wrecking Ball. Tricksy downbeat.

This one drives me crazy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rt5sdsKlYU

Wow, I listened to that Emmylou one and thought I had it, but I was wrong and can't get back to how I heard it the first time. It's all due to that cool beat that Brian Blade is playing (and I checked out the live version, where his brother is on drums and doing a much more straight-forward beat).