It is!? I was always under the impression that 'Appels + Oranjes' was a well loved track amongst Pumpkins die-hards.
For me, one of the things that made the Pumpkins so great is that they combined a lot of things that I love. Hard rock? Check. New wave? Check. Shoegazing/goth rock? Check. Proggy epics? Check. And much more...
― Gholdfish Killah (Turrican), Friday, 10 November 2017 19:18 (six years ago) link
This is partly why I've always been down on Zeitgeist - Billy felt that he had to make a rock record, but the Pumpkins were more than a straight hard rock or alternative rock band.
― Gholdfish Killah (Turrican), Friday, 10 November 2017 19:21 (six years ago) link
otm, always loved Billy's description of the band as a wheel with all the different genres/influences/directions as spokes on that wheel. Zeitgeist is pretty one-note, but so is Gish- there's Crush, Daydream, and the dynamics in songs like Window Paine and Suffer, but there are equivalents on Zeitgeist like Bleeding the Orchid, That's the Way, the last two tracks. Issue obviously is the songs aren't as good.
― flappy bird, Friday, 10 November 2017 19:25 (six years ago) link
I couldn't say that Gish was one note, I can still hear a combination of very different influences in there!
― Gholdfish Killah (Turrican), Friday, 10 November 2017 19:34 (six years ago) link
"what if" is interesting but i think the final arrangement of "appels" is basically perfect (it's "dated" i guess but it sounds about as good as anything on ray of light does today), the synthetic cymbal/snare rush give the song a kinda dazed wonder and rapid frame-rate that fits and enhances the lyric, it's sort of like the musical embodiment of billy corgan saying "whoa" at a time lapse film or something
― ToddBonzalez (BradNelson), Friday, 10 November 2017 19:59 (six years ago) link
I wouldn't change a thing about Adore. Unlike MCIS or Machina, I would never consider tinkering with it.
― Simon H., Friday, 10 November 2017 20:01 (six years ago) link
don't get me wrong brad, i love the way the album version of A+O sounds, but i understand why it's such a divisive track, ray of light comparison is otm and probably has a lot to do with that. netphoria is a miserable place.
FYI Adore probably wouldn't have tanked as hard as it did if Billy didn't pulled the Rick Rubin produced version of "Let Me Give the World to You" off the album at the last second. He wrote in the liner notes to that 2014 reissue that that song was going to be last on the album, and he was in a meeting with a bunch of executives that were visibly put-off, scared, and bored by the entire record except LMGTWTY, so he pulled it out of... spite? dumbass. that shit would've been a hit single.
having said that, I can't imagine Adore ending any other way than with "Blank Page."
― flappy bird, Friday, 10 November 2017 21:33 (six years ago) link
i completely disagree that "let me give the world to you" would've been a hit but i guess we'll never know. i'm personally thrilled it's not on the record
― ToddBonzalez (BradNelson), Friday, 10 November 2017 21:48 (six years ago) link
yeah it would've been really jarring tacked on at the end of that record, he obviously made the right decision longterm - people love Adore now, I still think it's their last masterpiece - & LMGTWTY as a bland MOR single from this very dark, sad record might've worked and deceived people at the time, but by now it would be obvious to everyone what a cowardly & hedging move.
― flappy bird, Friday, 10 November 2017 23:28 (six years ago) link
um appels + oranjes is the best song on adore in my opinion
― brimstead, Friday, 10 November 2017 23:35 (six years ago) link
the machina ii version of LMGTWTY is definitely better
― ufo, Friday, 10 November 2017 23:44 (six years ago) link
i also find it weird that billy thinks it would've been "the hit" bc by the time adore came out pop had already shifted significantly
― ToddBonzalez (BradNelson), Saturday, 11 November 2017 00:21 (six years ago) link
Billy in never really understanding the world through which he grumpily drags himself shocker.
― Tim F, Saturday, 11 November 2017 00:45 (six years ago) link
i'm saying i could see it being an MOR / adult contemporary hit, at a time when bands like Matchbox 20 were doing very well making that kind of music. it's very much that type of song, you know? he tried to get into the NIN/Manson market with Ava Adore and it didn't work. maybe the same would've happened with LMGTWTY and MOR radio, who knows.
― flappy bird, Saturday, 11 November 2017 00:59 (six years ago) link
i absolutely LOVED "eye" when it came out, i was totally looking forward to the next album being all depeche modey
― brimstead, Saturday, 11 November 2017 01:10 (six years ago) link
I have a theory that TEITBITE was the BOTE for SM commercially because billy looked so silly in the video clip.
But yeah I remember being vaguely disappointed there wasn’t more stuff like “Eye” on the album.
― Tim F, Saturday, 11 November 2017 07:20 (six years ago) link
“ava adore” is such a weird song. so moody and glitchy and then there’s a double-tracked guitar solo that sounds imported from a cheap trick song
― ToddBonzalez (BradNelson), Saturday, 11 November 2017 15:34 (six years ago) link
i first saw the "ava adore" video on trl when it wasn't live and was just called total request and it was just carson daily counting down videos on a couch in a dark studio iirc. think it came on before "as long as you love me." i was completely obsessed with mellon collie and i thought "ava adore" was potentially the best song i'd ever heard, so i immediately bought the record and found it extremely confusing. for months i only listened to the songs that coded as "heavy" (so... just "ava" and "tear"), though i would compulsively read the lyrics to the other songs and make up my own vocal melodies to them (??? literally have no idea why i did this). one night, when i was bored with whatever record i was listening to at the time (eve 6?) i put adore on and listened to it the whole way through and had such a powerful experience that it immediately became my favorite album of all time. i still get that feeling a little every time i listen to it
― ToddBonzalez (BradNelson), Saturday, 11 November 2017 16:39 (six years ago) link
there are several weird cool digressions on this record, like the muffled piano bridge on "tear" or the "all you have to do is run away" part of "behold! the night mare" (that title is classic btw); the songwriting just feels very open in a way that carried over somewhat to machina and then the dude never really wrote that way again
― ToddBonzalez (BradNelson), Saturday, 11 November 2017 16:44 (six years ago) link
i'm at the point where i think "perfect" was def the best sp single and is maybe the best sp song
― ToddBonzalez (BradNelson), Saturday, 11 November 2017 16:46 (six years ago) link
ha brad I specifically cited that part as the justification for my B!tNM vote
also I'm finally listening to the b-sides/outtakes and boy this really is the album where Billy and co. just completely nailed the track selection and sequence
― Simon H., Saturday, 11 November 2017 16:47 (six years ago) link
otm
― ToddBonzalez (BradNelson), Saturday, 11 November 2017 16:54 (six years ago) link
i mean i love the b-sides for this record but i'm glad they're all not on the record (except maybe "blissed and gone" and "waiting")
― ToddBonzalez (BradNelson), Saturday, 11 November 2017 16:55 (six years ago) link
of what made it on, it's absolutely *not* an intuitive set of songs to sequence, either. you could make a case for seven or eight possible openers!
― Simon H., Saturday, 11 November 2017 16:56 (six years ago) link
"to sheila" was an inspired choice as an opener i think; it sets a muted, intimate, dreamy tone (even as "ava adore" comes crashing in after it) that the rest of the album lengthens and sustains
― ToddBonzalez (BradNelson), Saturday, 11 November 2017 17:00 (six years ago) link
even when the album tries to get hard and edgy (verses of "pug") it inevitably slips into something more blurred and glowing (chorus of "pug")
― ToddBonzalez (BradNelson), Saturday, 11 November 2017 17:04 (six years ago) link
the arising ‘99 version of Pug rules
― flappy bird, Saturday, 11 November 2017 17:59 (six years ago) link
The album premiered on a radio station here, two weeks or so before the actual release. I taped it obv. But for some reason, they aired it with the songs shuffled, not the album order. Bear in mind, it was two weeks before the physical release, so I played that tape to death. What they did was play Annie Dog which seamlessly went into Appels + Oranjes... I thought it was one song! And because I played that tape approx 1 million times those weeks, I cannot ever uncouple the two. Even made an mp3 pasting them together lol. It really works though!
― Le Bateau Ivre, Saturday, 11 November 2017 18:22 (six years ago) link
lol did they play it in alphabetical order
― ToddBonzalez (BradNelson), Saturday, 11 November 2017 18:25 (six years ago) link
ah yes, the famous "adeor" edit
― Simon H., Saturday, 11 November 2017 18:28 (six years ago) link
Whoa you just blew my mind :D
Seriously though, when Corgan ends Annie Dog with 'fa-ace...' and then that A+O intro comes in... You had to be there prob but it works.
xp lol
― Le Bateau Ivre, Saturday, 11 November 2017 18:28 (six years ago) link
lol @ simon
― Doctor Casino, Saturday, 11 November 2017 18:43 (six years ago) link
i'm sure it's been brought up already, but this album is really too damn long for one disc. i'm very much in favor of bands releasing long albums on two CDs even if they can fit on a single disc.. like the unwound double album...
― brimstead, Sunday, 12 November 2017 00:31 (six years ago) link
"behold! the night mare" (that title is classic btw)
Brad gets it.
― Ned Raggett, Sunday, 12 November 2017 01:35 (six years ago) link
behold! the night mare is my favourite
the album is definitely too long but i'm not really sure what i'd cut except for annie-dog
― ufo, Sunday, 12 November 2017 03:07 (six years ago) link
Adore is overlong and shaggy in a way that reinforces its sense of loss and the feeling of actually being lost, and wandering in the dark. To Sheila is such a clear-eyed, relaxed, and optimistic opener, and from there it goes in a dozen different directions, and it ends all so unresolved with Blank Page.
― flappy bird, Sunday, 12 November 2017 03:23 (six years ago) link
D'arcy whining on the documentary about still being in the studio after ten months when the plan was to record the album in 6 weeks (4 days a week, 6 hour days) = classic.
― Gholdfish Killah (Turrican), Sunday, 12 November 2017 13:17 (six years ago) link
and the recording process for MCIS had to have been even longer lol
― Simon H., Sunday, 12 November 2017 19:13 (six years ago) link
actually the MCIS sessions only lasted ~6 months, early March to late August '95. the record was finished by the time they played Reading that year. pretty remarkable considering those sessions yielded the majority of TAFH as well.
― flappy bird, Sunday, 12 November 2017 20:42 (six years ago) link
but they were super concentrated & focused in 1995; Adore was much more of a session here, session there type of record, and one that started off as a Billy Corgan solo album (according to Brad Wood, who recorded To Sheila, Blank Page, Ava Adore, Tear, Daphne Descends, and Behold! the Night Mare). The 666 Tapes show the band at their best, one of my favorite performances of Porcelina is 27 minutes in:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_U7QGPz4xmA
― flappy bird, Sunday, 12 November 2017 20:48 (six years ago) link
I wonder how well rehearsed they were going in, and hoe much pre-production there was, though? I have a feeling some were rehearsed up prior to going in with others being worked out in the studio and others only featuring Billy (like 'Stumbleine') or Billy/Jimmy only. It's a lot of material!
― Gholdfish Killah (Turrican), Sunday, 12 November 2017 20:50 (six years ago) link
*how
― Gholdfish Killah (Turrican), Sunday, 12 November 2017 20:51 (six years ago) link
yeah of the 56 on MCIS & TAFH it breaks down like this:
written for Siamese DreamSet the Ray to JerryMeladori Magpie
written during the Siamese Dream tour ( Gravity Demos )Tonight, TonightJellybellyZeroHere is No WhyTo ForgiveLoveGalapagosMouths of BabesMarquis in SpadesThe Aeroplane Flies HighPenniesUgly
written fall '94 - early '95pretty much everything else
written during the recording of MCISWhere Boys Fear to TreadBodiesIn the Arms of Sleep1979Thru the Eyes of RubyX.Y.U.We Only Come Out at Night
Lots of stuff is just Billy at home: Stumbleine, Meladori Magpie, Rotten Apples, Blank... then they recorded the covers for TAFH right before Jimmy OD'd, and iirc they did a few more like Medellia and The Last Song that summer. But yeah most of those 56 songs were written and recorded in a very short period of time, pretty insane. there was a lot of pre-production and rehearsal in the fall of '94, and you can get a good sense of where they were at with the four Double Door shows in February '95, days before they went into the studio. Songs like Muzzle, Fuck You, Porcelina, Thirty-three, Zero, and on and on and on, were all fully formed by then.
― flappy bird, Sunday, 12 November 2017 21:04 (six years ago) link
a previously uncirculated gem was uploaded today. 2 hour adore-era show, ridiculous setlist & performance
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Yvk7X4wmhE
To SheilaBehold! the Night MarePugTearOnce Upon a TimeCrestfallenAva AdoreAppels + OranjesDaphne DescendsAnnie-DogPerfectTonight, TonightThe Tale of Dusty and Pistol PeteBullet with Butterfly WingsShameFor Martha---1979Blank Page
― flappy bird, Saturday, 2 December 2017 06:07 (six years ago) link
Apathy Video continues to be a youtube hero. This just went up 15 minutes ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHDtCRHFsn4
― flappy bird, Saturday, 20 January 2018 00:52 (six years ago) link
aw 11:22
― flappy bird, Saturday, 20 January 2018 01:04 (six years ago) link
the interviewer does some annoying bits in the beginning but his description of Adore as "a wolf in lamb's clothing" is otfm
― flappy bird, Saturday, 20 January 2018 01:09 (six years ago) link
MTV: Think about those early days in the little rehearsal space. It all came true, didn't it?
BILLY: ...Yeah.
JAMES: I never thought about that.
D'ARCY: Never thought about what?
JAMES: I don't know, whatever he's saying there.
D'ARCY: You don't even know what he's saying!
MTV: Way back then in your little rehearsal space in Chicago, with Stumpy the three-legged cat, Billy was what we call "larging it," saying that "The Smashing Pumpkins are going to be one of the greatest bands on the face of the earth." Cast your mind back then, were you thinking, "Yeah, he's right," or were you like "Right, call an ambulance"?
D'ARCY: That image at that moment, he doesn't even remember that. That's just like etched in my mind, and I'm like "Well, yeah." I just thought of course, or I wouldn't be putting up with any of this bullshit. I wouldn't be putting myself through this hell if I didn't think that something was going to come of it. It was really hard. It was very hard. Stumpy... he was the best part about it.
― flappy bird, Saturday, 20 January 2018 01:27 (six years ago) link
I love d'arcy so fucking much lol
― Simon H., Saturday, 20 January 2018 03:59 (six years ago) link
I do too but Melissa Auf Der Mar is one of the sexiest bass players ever so she is not my favorite bass player in the Smashing Pumpkins.
― ✖✖✖ (Moka), Saturday, 20 January 2018 07:13 (six years ago) link