A new list to rip to shreds: Maxim's 30 Worst Albums of all Time.

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Same ignorant analysis you always make, Amateurist. Not even worth wasting time answering it this time, since you've never listened before and won't start now. Except: I singled out albums I LIKE, dammit. There's no shtick to it, and never was. So fuck you.

― chuck, Tuesday, 8 July 2003 15:58 (twenty-one years ago) link

So if they knew who the Shaggs were - would they be on this list or not on this list?

Same question for Metal Machine Music, The Flowers of Romance, ..

..and Jim Capaldi's "Daughter of the Night" , Elizabeth Barraclough's "Hi", Trickster's "Find the Lady", ..etc...

― dave225 (Dave225), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 15:59 (twenty-one years ago) link

I think Tico Tico's earned the right to make references.

― Cozen (Cozen), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 16:19 (twenty-one years ago) link

Richard and Karen’s flowery up-with-people optimism

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 16:29 (twenty-one years ago) link

chuck you never have answered it, which is fine, because i've never phrased it in a diplomatic way. i don't doubt that you like those albums--i like some of them too--but that's not my point. my point is that your opinions seem to be dominated by puckishness and insouciance to the point of tedium. i'll take your insults gladly.

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 16:43 (twenty-one years ago) link

I'm sure the reason most of the above-named boy/girl bands aren't on it is (a) they need the latter for covers and (b) the list is three years old.

― M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 16:49 (twenty-one years ago) link

For what it's worth, "Everybody Hurts" is on Automatic For the People.

I liked Monster. It is what it is. I traded an old roommated Siamese Dream for it and have never looked back since.

― Pleasant Plains (Pleasant Plains), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 16:52 (twenty-one years ago) link

Amateurist, I've answered your stupid accusations four or five times on this board alone. At least once, you were so embarrassed by your own initial whining that you emailed me and apologized, and asked that your comments be eliminated from the board. You seem to know very little about what my opinions ARE, and you seem to have no reading comprehension whatsovever about what I've written. I've explained in specific detail what I like about almost every one of the above records in my writing; there's not a single one of them I like because other people (who write about music or otherwise) DON'T like them. Most of them were actually big hits, which suggests I'm hardly alone in my opinions about them. A couple of them placed in Pazz and Jop; one of them includes a Pazz & Jop number one single; a couple more include top ten Pazz & Jop singles. So there's nothing even especially contrarian about the list. Do you think my list-threads on the albums I've liked so far this year are dominated by puckish insouciance as well? If so, how?? Have you even *seen* them? How much of my writing HAVE you seen? Instead of arguing with my opinions themselves, why do you feel the pathetic need to argue with some imagined *motive* behind my opinions? You have no idea what you're talking about, and whenever we get into these arguments you end up ADMITTING as much. So which one of us "just won't stop," guy?

― chuck, Tuesday, 8 July 2003 17:27 (twenty-one years ago) link

i was embarrassed because the particular accusation i had levelled didn't wash, and i stand by my apology. but as for insouciance...chuck for god's sake you titled your book The Accidental Evolution of Rock'N'Roll: A Misguided Tour Through Popular Music--the puckishness of "misguided" seems self-evident, as does your overall style of blithely asserting (not illustrating) the greatness of records on which there is little consensus, as if through sheer force of iconoclasm (and not actual investigation) you will sunder some kind of canonical appreciation of pop music. the opinions themselves, as discrete entities, don't bother me so much as the overall approach evidenced by them taken together. and yes i'm probably indulging in a bit of caricature (as others have in describing me, and i've reacted with similar vitriol). you're right to suggest my statements are based on an incomplete appreciation of the range of your writing--i've read some of your voice pages, sundry posts on ilx, and a few snatches of your books.

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 17:43 (twenty-one years ago) link

: ( born again is a great record

― trife (simon_tr), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 17:44 (twenty-one years ago) link

i should also confess that i strongly dislike your writing style, and i'm probably making the mistake of impugning some fairly "ok" arguments because of that.

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 17:46 (twenty-one years ago) link

also amateurist surely you can see the necessity (and fun!!) in being self aware of your difft opinion when you happen to like something most rock crit establishment types lamely shit on, stop whining to sterl about how he only digs pink ironically k??

― trife (simon_tr), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 17:46 (twenty-one years ago) link

er huh? i like pink and don't recall making any such statement.

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 17:48 (twenty-one years ago) link

amateurist:chuck eddy :: trife:amateurist

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 17:49 (twenty-one years ago) link

>>overall style of blithely asserting (not illustrating) the greatness of records on which there is little consensus, as if through sheer force of iconoclasm (and not actual investigation)<<

In what way does my writing NOT illustrate or investigate the greatness of the records I think are great? (Again, have you ever actually READ my two books? I can't think of very many books that contain MORE illustration and investigation in them; I mean, if anything, THAT's what might make them tedious. And I defy you to find a single review I've written that didn't talk in specifics about what makes music good or bad as well; if anything, THAT's my shtick.) And what about the zillions of times I've asserted greatness of records and artists where there IS a consensus? I mean, have you noticed how many positive mentions Dylan, say, gets in my second book?? More than anybody, if I remember right. Sounds like you're saying I should ONLY like artists where there's a consensus. Which would make me an idiot.

― chuck, Tuesday, 8 July 2003 17:54 (twenty-one years ago) link

...and a boring one, at that. And you'd be a big fan, I bet.

― chuck, Tuesday, 8 July 2003 18:02 (twenty-one years ago) link

no chuck youre clearly a smug contrarian for liking poison and ace of base!!! you think youre so 'cool' for disagreeing with maxim, why dont you come down off your ivory tower dude!!!! down into the grey soggy mush of amateuristville >:o

― trife (simon_tr), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 18:07 (twenty-one years ago) link

really amateurist how is your constant faux-everyman 'i just dont UNDERSTAND!' mode any more of an affectation than playing with rock crit audience preconceptions, youre like the ilm balls out nu garage band, bringing back the rock, dude why do all you pretentious art snobs have to KILL MUSIC with your FAKENESS

― trife (simon_tr), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 18:10 (twenty-one years ago) link

And how do any of the last three long Voice pieces I've done (White Stripes, Eminem as a dad, Eminem/Kid Rock), or for that matter, the singles column I was writing for a couple years, connect AT ALL to the alleged "approach" you imagine in my writing? Feel free to go to villagevoice.com and search my name if you want; I'm really curious, and the articles are there for you to dissect. But you won't.

>> I can't think of very many books that contain MORE illustration and investigation in them;<<

I meant books about rock music here, by the way; not auto manuals or the Bill James Baseball Abstract or the Bible or whatever.

― chuck, Tuesday, 8 July 2003 18:11 (twenty-one years ago) link

what about those puckish auto manuals that recommend parts for FOREIGN CARS, how insouciant!!

― trife (simon_tr), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 18:16 (twenty-one years ago) link

http://www.sound2cb.com/education/teaching/lmu/lmuono/mario.jpg

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 18:22 (twenty-one years ago) link

I can't believe I ever had a problem with Trife! Now I want him to run for president.

― Nicole (Nicole), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 18:24 (twenty-one years ago) link

o that was silly, forgive me. i have to finish work up or i'll get in trouble, but suffice to say that chuck's right, i'm basing my judgement on a narrow sliver of his work and i should admit that. so my jibes stand only for his contributions to a number of ilm threads, similar to my jibes in sterling's direction.

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 18:25 (twenty-one years ago) link

what is that, an electrical vagina?

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 18:26 (twenty-one years ago) link

for trife:

puckish, a.: Of the nature of or characteristic of Puck; impish, mischievous, capricious. Hence puckishly adv.; puckishness.

insouciance, n.: Carelessness, indifference, unconcern.

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 18:28 (twenty-one years ago) link

jess if you are ever administered a rorscach test my advice is to lie!

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 18:29 (twenty-one years ago) link

amateurist did you make some sort of vow to carry on the indie guilt c/d thread? dont forget to end your wigga tags when you endlessly accuse ilm of pretending to like stuff

― trife (simon_tr), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 18:29 (twenty-one years ago) link

Jess, you are my favorite person on the entire planet right now.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 18:29 (twenty-one years ago) link

it's like the eye of sauron

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 18:31 (twenty-one years ago) link

trife you have an uncanny ability to hone in on all of ilm's bugaboos!

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 18:33 (twenty-one years ago) link

Can I just mention here that Amateurist's complaint w/r/t Chuck Eddy = my complaint with regard to Chuck Klosterman? (Which I think does turn out to be a different complaint than the one Chuck and Trife are mounting defenses against.)

― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 18:34 (twenty-one years ago) link

ilm = a bunch of rutting hobbits

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 18:35 (twenty-one years ago) link

That makes it sound better than it really is.

― Nicole (Nicole), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 18:36 (twenty-one years ago) link

have they never read american psycho?

They are American Psycho ...

― brian nemtusak (sanlazaro), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 18:44 (twenty-one years ago) link

Arguments like this make me want to move to the Highlands, take up the bagpipes, and never listen to pop again.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 18:46 (twenty-one years ago) link

Anyway, about this list, I think we need to keep in mind that Maxim for the most part amounts to one long jokey sidebar of cheeky lists illustrated with pictures of tan girls in bras, and as such this is less a "real" list of music and more a collection of jokes the readership's expected to get whether or not they're actually familiar with the records in question -- which is a slightly different thing from "easy targets." The number of people who appreciate jokes about Yoko Ono sucking is about a thousand times larger than the number of people who have ever heard more than ten seconds of Yoko Ono's actual music; making jokes about Regis Philbin and David Hasselhoff is pretty much extra-musical; making jokes about Yanni, Ace of Base, Milli Vanilli, or Debbie Gibson is a tried-and-true knee-jerk. Put them all together with Vanilla Ice and you've got a Leno monologue. It's more interesting, I suppose, where they pick on their own readership's used-bin contributions, like the REM and Pearl Jam, but I don't think there's any point in pretending that this is much more than a convenient piece of sidebar-standup.

― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 18:51 (twenty-one years ago) link

No more hobbit talk you filthy bestialists.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 18:52 (twenty-one years ago) link

I'd also guess that the manpower put into assembling the list was one tenth of that put into the picture of the hardbody in the sexy-construction-worker outfit steamrolling a pile of CDs that surely accompanied it.

― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 18:53 (twenty-one years ago) link

Maxim: We are, in one single embodiment, every asshole you have ever met in your entire life. We were the guys who thought quoting Austin Powers was funny... 3 years after the movie came out. We call beers "brewski's," we watch the Super Bowl and laugh hysterically at all of the ads, and after giving a high five, we offer on more "down low" only to pull our hand away and exclaim with joy "too slow!"

This is our literature. We seriously aren't aware of the fact that Leonard Nemoy released an album of hippie songs sung by an alien, and HE knew it was a joke too. We think foreign people totally suck and are gay, especially that European dance crap for pansies, Ace of Bass can totally suck it, give us some Kid Rock baby!

Now excuse us, we have to make room for our new poll, "What's Better, Chicks, Cars, or Brewski's?"

― David Allen, Tuesday, 8 July 2003 20:43 (twenty-one years ago) link

David Allen is the Pope of OTM!

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 20:45 (twenty-one years ago) link

(Sadly / Thankfully) that's a big underestimation of Maxim. Jockiness has reckoned with cool and become a slippery, complicated, and quite a bit sharper beast.

― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 20:47 (twenty-one years ago) link

Jockiness has reckoned with cool and become a slippery,complicated, and quite a bit sharper beast.

.....to you, maybe.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 20:55 (twenty-one years ago) link

yeah, take THAT nabisco!

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 20:57 (twenty-one years ago) link

ha ha alex!!! anyway maxim is ok and sort of cool but pretty much the same thing as ilm now, check their very uncool beatles dicksuck hating on the sgt peppers soundtrack and ono box!! yes maxim surely the worst album of all time would be one that makes the beatles sound bad!! ilm too in compulsive listmaking and the idea that there is 'bad' music, also for every thirty acts mentioned theres two token rap picks corresponding perfectly with the ilm 1/15 hiphop ratio

― trife (simon_tr), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:01 (twenty-one years ago) link

also david allen even though youve obv never read maxim do you hate beer and women?!!?!

― trife (simon_tr), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:04 (twenty-one years ago) link

See, the funny thing is, Alex, Nabisco was actually expressing YOUR opinion.

Fucking x-post w/ Jess. I shouldn't bother trying.

― David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:04 (twenty-one years ago) link

trife you are ~~speaking truth to power!~~ getting annoying

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:20 (twenty-one years ago) link

I just realized that the remarks after each title on the list are aimed at the reader, "If you own it." That's mean!

― Sam J. (samjeff), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:27 (twenty-one years ago) link

wow very perceptive you have clearly seen right through my 'schtick' just as you did w sterl and chuck, ok everybody yall can stop talking now amateurist has spoken

― trife (simon_tr), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:29 (twenty-one years ago) link

Trife, do you watch The Man Show a lot? What, don't you like girls on trampolines?

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:30 (twenty-one years ago) link

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