But yeah, as the years go by I'm beginning to find the level of scorn that Collins attracts to be ridiculously over the top pretty much most of the time. There are, and have been, far far far bigger jerks in music, and a lot of the bile thrown Collins' way seems petty.
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Thursday, 18 October 2018 18:46 (five years ago) link
Compared to Billy Joel he's practically a saint.
He's good and defensible up and through No Jacket, and with Genesis even the last record. I don't think I've heard his last four solo records, and don't recognize a single song title save "Wear My Hat," which I only know from when I saw him live last tour and it was a goofy novelty number. He's playing here Monday but I don't think I'll be able to catch it. US tour at least is relatively modest, heard it might have been due to concerns about his health.
― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 18 October 2018 18:48 (five years ago) link
Like, on one hand you have disgruntled Genesis fans who blame Collins for the way the band developed in the '80s, which isn't really fair given that all members of Genesis were equally responsible - not to mention they were making music appropriate to, inspired by and a reaction to the time. If they'd put an album like Nursery Cryme out in 1981, they would have been criticised for it. On another hand, it just seems like sour grapes and jealousy that Collins was everywhere and super successful on a huge scale.
(x-post)
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Thursday, 18 October 2018 18:56 (five years ago) link
But he worked for it! He worked his butt off for it. And he was nothing but a drummer her still would have been one of the best drummers of all time.
― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 18 October 2018 18:58 (five years ago) link
He's playing here Monday but I don't think I'll be able to catch it. US tour at least is relatively modest, heard it might have been due to concerns about his health.― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, October 18, 2018 6:48 PM (eight minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, October 18, 2018 6:48 PM (eight minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Yeah, I've heard he's actually sitting down for the gigs and struggles to walk without a cane. I haven't seen any footage of his recent tour though, so I don't know what shape his voice is in right now.
I've begun to realise recently that for a guy that made his name as one of the greatest drummers in progressive rock, that I really love his voice and find his singing - when it's at its finest - unbeatable.
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Thursday, 18 October 2018 19:01 (five years ago) link
Like, fucking hell his vocal on 'Mama' is some real hairs-standing-up-on-the-back-of-the-neck shit.
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Thursday, 18 October 2018 19:03 (five years ago) link
as per my previously mentioned charity boxset find, I have enjoyed the albums far more than I ever expected to.basically, yeah, he definitely got a lot more shit than he deserved.
― mark e, Thursday, 18 October 2018 19:06 (five years ago) link
But he worked for it! He worked his butt off for it. And he was nothing but a drummer her still would have been one of the best drummers of all time.― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, October 18, 2018 6:58 PM (seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, October 18, 2018 6:58 PM (seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Absolutely, you can't really fault his work ethic. Not just Genesis and solo, but Brand X and all those guest appearances. Speaking of which, is there a list anywhere of all the stuff Collins played on over the years?
It's funny - there's been more than a few artists over the years that have been all about clinging to their supposed "arty" credentials, and just as many that want to be million-selling pop stars. During his career, Collins has been both a huge pop star and a cult art-rock hero.
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Thursday, 18 October 2018 19:15 (five years ago) link
“Misunderstanding”is pretty great but “Easy Lover” is f’in all-time
― calstars, Thursday, 18 October 2018 19:20 (five years ago) link
http://www.superdeluxeedition.com/news/phil-collins-plays-well-with-others/
― mark e, Thursday, 18 October 2018 19:23 (five years ago) link
“Misunderstanding”is pretty great but “Easy Lover” is f’in all-time― calstars, Thursday, October 18, 2018 7:20 PM (twenty-six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― calstars, Thursday, October 18, 2018 7:20 PM (twenty-six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
I love both, fwiw!
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Thursday, 18 October 2018 19:48 (five years ago) link
Yeah turrican you are def otm
― cod mad (Ross), Thursday, 18 October 2018 19:49 (five years ago) link
collins drumming on gabriel 3 all time
― cod mad (Ross), Thursday, 18 October 2018 19:53 (five years ago) link
Just found out Phil sang this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyagd2EvwDU
― badg, Thursday, 18 October 2018 20:01 (five years ago) link
http://www.superdeluxeedition.com/news/phil-collins-plays-well-with-others/― mark e, Thursday, October 18, 2018 7:23 PM (thirty-two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― mark e, Thursday, October 18, 2018 7:23 PM (thirty-two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Even that doesn't seem to be close to exhaustive - the people in the comments section are pointing out so much that's missing that it's making my head spin.
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Thursday, 18 October 2018 20:02 (five years ago) link
Talking about Gabriel, nobody ever thought he was the fucking antichrist when he did his version of a pop album with So.
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Thursday, 18 October 2018 20:05 (five years ago) link
"Just found out Phil sang this"
it says "vocals: phil" on the back of the album sleeve after the song title!
― akm, Thursday, 18 October 2018 20:13 (five years ago) link
I was listening to ...But Seriously and Face Value when I was in grade 4, so he was among my very first favorite artists.It's probably anathema here, but as a soft song, I really liked Another Day in Paradise when I heard it. Apparently there was a film involved that I haven't watched (was it Jungle Book ? I like the Jungle Book).As others said, his music is pretty innocuous.
― Nabozo, Thursday, 18 October 2018 20:17 (five years ago) link
“Now she don’t even know my name / but I think she likes me just the same” story of my life
― calstars, Thursday, 18 October 2018 20:29 (five years ago) link
Talking about Gabriel, nobody ever thought he was the fucking antichrist when he did his version of a pop album with /So/.
― brimstead, Thursday, 18 October 2018 20:37 (five years ago) link
"Just found out Phil sang this"it says "vocals: phil" on the back of the album sleeve after the song title!
― badg, Thursday, 18 October 2018 20:43 (five years ago) link
fwiw he only plays on a few tracks on Gabriel 3.
― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 18 October 2018 20:48 (five years ago) link
The hate toward him has softened in the last decade or so. Partly it's that he's no longer inescapable on TV and radio, but also that his influence as a pop songwriter is more enduring than anyone would have thought in the 80s.
― dinnerboat, Thursday, 18 October 2018 20:58 (five years ago) link
Reading his book really put things in perspective for me. There was a period he was actively in Genesis and solo, both stadium level endeavors, plus also playing drums for Robert Plant (on tour!) and Eric Clapton, plus producing and guesting, plus sometimes acting, plus playing any number of benefits. The bulk of this was between 1980 and, say, 1986. Just a ton of work.
― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 18 October 2018 21:16 (five years ago) link
phil collins is good.
as is billy joel.
so are the eagles.
all in a "take a couple/few tracks per album and ignore most of the output" kind of way but still
― ( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 18 October 2018 21:32 (five years ago) link
heard "something happened on the way to heaven" in the food court the over day and it brightened my day
― ( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 18 October 2018 21:33 (five years ago) link
Reallllly don't think Phil was the driving force behind pushing Genesis towards 'pop' when Mike and Tony were the principal songwriters throughout their transitional period (and beyond)
― PaulTMA, Thursday, 18 October 2018 21:36 (five years ago) link
It was totally the other guys pushing pop, after the departure of Steve Hackett. it just so happened that the band's first pop success, after Follow You Follow Me at least, was a Phil track iirc. Misunderstanding? plus his solo stuff gave him clout.
― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 18 October 2018 21:39 (five years ago) link
I think Follow You Follow Me was Mike-driven but a group effort
― PaulTMA, Thursday, 18 October 2018 21:56 (five years ago) link
Granted 'Misunderstanding' was a hit but those three post-Hackett albums are dominated by Mike and Tony's 'pop' songs with Phil being a relatively figure
― PaulTMA, Thursday, 18 October 2018 21:59 (five years ago) link
*marginal
I ignorantly just assumed it was Phil pushing the pop since he's the frontman + there's all these Genesis songs I used to think were Phil solo songs. I don't really know Genesis. I love "turn it on again", that is my jam
― brimstead, Thursday, 18 October 2018 23:23 (five years ago) link
Yeah. Along the same lines I was baffled as a kid looking for “invisible touch” on the PC solo albums
― calstars, Thursday, 18 October 2018 23:33 (five years ago) link
yeah, brimstead, it wasn't Collins.
― You like queer? I like queer. Still like queer. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 18 October 2018 23:39 (five years ago) link
'Invisible Touch' began life much the same way as 'Turn It On Again'... as a Mike Rutherford guitar riff! This whole thing about Collins pushing the band towards "pop" is a line that's even people who are allegedly hardcore Genesis fans follow, which I've never understood.
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Friday, 19 October 2018 06:28 (five years ago) link
Why would he need me to defend him? This thread makes no sense.
― ✖✖✖ (Moka), Friday, 19 October 2018 06:32 (five years ago) link
Problem for PC (not that it's done him much commercial harm) is that he doesn't come across as particularly likeable.The official take on classic-era Genesis personality types is:Rutherford: LikeableHackett: LikeableGabriel: Likeable/creativeCollins: Del-BoyBanks: Passive-aggressive control freak
― Maltrsnapper, Friday, 19 October 2018 10:28 (five years ago) link
Banks is the only one that seems like an asshole.
I think the Collins bad rap came from his later solo career, actually, when he had no one to blame for his mawkishness but himself. Which maybe he always veered toward, anyway, but minus the musicianship/proggy veneer or cool spare arrangements he became mired in mushy A/C.
― Josh in Chicago, Friday, 19 October 2018 12:03 (five years ago) link
Reallllly don't think Phil was the driving force behind pushing Genesis towards 'pop' when Mike and Tony were the principal songwriters throughout their transitional period (and beyond)― PaulTMA, Thursday, October 18, 2018 4:36 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post PermalinkIt was totally the other guys pushing pop, after the departure of Steve Hackett. it just so happened that the band's first pop success, after Follow You Follow Me at least, was a Phil track iirc. Misunderstanding? plus his solo stuff gave him clout.― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, October 18, 2018 4:39 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink'Invisible Touch' began life much the same way as 'Turn It On Again'... as a Mike Rutherford guitar riff! This whole thing about Collins pushing the band towards "pop" is a line that's even people who are allegedly hardcore Genesis fans follow, which I've never understood.― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Friday, October 19, 2018 1:28 AM (five hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― PaulTMA, Thursday, October 18, 2018 4:36 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, October 18, 2018 4:39 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Friday, October 19, 2018 1:28 AM (five hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
I've heard this a couple of times on ILM and it may well be true as a lot of you guys know a lot more about Collins/Genesis than I do. Still, though, as early as 1973, doesn't "More Fool Me" (Collins/Rutherford?) stand out pretty dramatically from everything else on Selling England by the Pound? I think it does anyway. And, as with brimstead, a lot of 80s-onward (esp mid-80s-onward) Genesis does seem more of a piece with solo Collins than with Gabriel-era Genesis to my ears. Afaict, he is credited as a co-writer on most or all of it. I think Turrican gave the example of solo Gabriel: to me, this is instructive because solo Gabriel (even his pop moves) does feel much more like the version of Genesis that I love responding to the 80s and 90s. Could just be that Gabriel was important enough as a frontman presence for me, more so than any of KC's singers or even Jon Anderson (whom I like a lot), idk.
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Friday, 19 October 2018 12:21 (five years ago) link
Gabriel also experimented a lot and pushed boundaries, whereas Phil and Genesis, for whatever reason, established the default sound of the decade.
― Josh in Chicago, Friday, 19 October 2018 12:27 (five years ago) link
Well, yeah, the version of Genesis I love was one that experimented (in the broad sense) and pushed boundaries [cue argument for the boundary-pushing experimental nature of "I Can't Dance"].
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Friday, 19 October 2018 12:38 (five years ago) link
That was ornery (and maybe there's a case that establishing the default sound of a decade requires pushing some boundaries) but I feel like it's something more than that as well.
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Friday, 19 October 2018 12:47 (five years ago) link
We may be giving Gabriel, whom I adore, too much credit for innovation and too little credit to Genesis/Collins for hit-making.
― You like queer? I like queer. Still like queer. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 19 October 2018 12:59 (five years ago) link
P sure I'm the only one here who's doing that.
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Friday, 19 October 2018 13:00 (five years ago) link
I do think that Collins/Genesis made some classic pop singles in the 80s, btw!
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Friday, 19 October 2018 13:05 (five years ago) link
Lots of people had hits in the 80s, and Collins had a lot of them. Not many artists were as innovative and experimental as Peter Gabriel, and he still managed to have hits. I do give more credit for that, fwiw.
― Josh in Chicago, Friday, 19 October 2018 13:16 (five years ago) link
Again, I love Gabriel, and his hits weren't particularly innovative or experimental. Me, I don't love artists because they experiment; songs come first, and Gabriel had them for a while. Notice that with one exception his albums outsold each other through So.
― You like queer? I like queer. Still like queer. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 19 October 2018 13:22 (five years ago) link
I think that e.g. the 7/4 groove in "Solsbury Hill" was p creative for something that is popular enough that it could be described this way on another thread:
it's been used for so much that it barely registers as a song that can be good anymore
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Friday, 19 October 2018 13:30 (five years ago) link
(I would also give credit to the makers of "In the Air Tonight" for sonic creativity.)
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Friday, 19 October 2018 13:48 (five years ago) link
Nominal hits like Games Without Frontiers and Shock the Monkey are plenty weird and innovative. Even the stuff on So is kind of weird and innovative, it was just a huge smash album, so perhaps sounds less so now that it is a touchstone. I don't think that necessarily makes it better than Phil Collins pop hits, if that is your preferred thing, but it certainly makes it more compelling to me. It persists outside of its popularity, not because of it.
― Josh in Chicago, Friday, 19 October 2018 13:51 (five years ago) link