Pazz and Jop.

whiney is a real critic who works to earn his elitism by trying to convince people outside its usual audiences about the value of underappreciated music and to generate a context for making sense of its social meaning
― j.

This is illuminating. So it's not that the substance of my suggestion was outrageous, it's that I dared to question "real" critics who write for glossies and papers, so you tried to put me in my place with personal insults and imply I'm not important enough to criticize the professional critics.

A long time ago I might have been pretentious enough to mansplain the "social meaning" of music to the ignorant masses. I've written for fanzines, newspapers, academic journals and glossy magazines, but I chose a different career path. To be clear, I am not saying Whiney does that (thanks for that snipe Whiney, I was referring to Kinsey's experiences growing up with homophobic-fueled bullying that he discussed
here and
here...I defended you when people pigpiled you on the CMJ board back in the day), it's just the pompous way that J. frames it that's offensive.

I thought the more expansive ballots in ILM polls were a good model. It seems J. would restrict the poll to writers from publications that have a certain reach. And they apparently have to advocate the right kind of underappreciated music.

morrisp, in three minutes you managed to extract that one negative sentence from my 15,000+ word piece, with the subtly diminishing, "Dang, blogger!" Well done. And then you dismiss me based on my #1 album. Wow you got me good! Do your frenemies fear you on social media?

Like I mentioned before, a person's top ten doesn't tell the whole story. Often the top choice is very personal, as it's what they choose to listen to most often. It's why a food critic might say they'd want a hamburger for their favorite meal instead of something complicated and extravagant. Maybe the food critic is tired of people asking for their #1 meal recommendation because they aren't patient enough to hear recommendations of a longer list that would include a wide variety of incredible experiences. Or why some clothing designers mostly wear a t-shirt and jeans rather than their own creations.

Are you all still sore from Krampusnacht? What is with the nasty, Grinchy spirit this season? It's not a good look on you guys. Katherine is the only one actually trying to discuss rather than get personal. I could have sworn I remember my P&J ballot being rejected if I missed a field or the points added up to less than 100, and all the individual ballots having ten entries, but the links to the old pages and data seem broken, so I'll take your word for it. No, I don't think there is only one variable that would make P&J different. I just made that one suggestion as it was relatively easy and feasible.

triggercut - along with the option to submit votes for a variety of genres, I would totally include a "New Old Discoveries" category. Because sure, it's just as thrilling to discover something that came out a long time ago. I've been including that in my year-end pieces too!

it's a little weird to me that people think they should pay attention to like 200 albums from this year just 'cos they...were released this year.

It's still important to me to try and find out about a band I'd love before their 20-year reunion tour so I can have a chance to see them live in the exciting early stages of their development, buy a t-shirt and/or their album on Bandcamp and do my best to spread the word about them. I just want to see bands and artists I like succeed, no measuring of dicks necessary.

they're not personal insults, you're just too dense (that's a personal insult) or disingenuous to realize that your unearned assumptions are being challenged. you're an enthusiast, there's nothing wrong with being an enthusiast. and i'm sure you put a lot of time into what you do, you'd have to. but it's time expended on the cheapest form of critical activity; it's sifting. what offends me is the suggestion that that somehow best qualifies a person for the mantle of the true music lover, or that the high-investment work of practicing music critics can be replaced by just hearing more records and periodically putting them in ranked lists. that comes to a point in something i haven't seen you addressing, which is that there is marginal critical value in making one's thirtieth or fiftieth or hundredth list placement for a month or a year or a decade, especially so when there's nothing to it but a number and, at best, a blurb.

I wasn't trying to diminish or dismiss you, FnB; it was really no more than a gentle ribbing (though I understand you have your hackles up). You did link to your blog, and one of the first headings I see scrolling down is a bright green Overrated, with a few artists' names also in bright green. Reporting a "viscerally negative reaction" to certain artists is kind of remarkable, especially in the context of your (apparently) very wide-ranging tastes; and so I remarked on it, in line with my actual reaction (were you expecting the reader to just nod in recognition and move on?)

And dude, I'm sorry, but there's something punchline-y about reading your comments in this thread, followed by 7 paragraphs of blog musings and a list of 30-odd countries around the globe from which you sampled music this year; and then arriving at that particular #1. I get your hamburger analogy, but it feels like when Elaine visits J. Peterman in his home, and all the exotic mystique is suddenly punctured when he just puts up his feet and watches TV.

it's punchline-y to you because, apparently, you don't like that album. but that's your opinion. lots of people - including FNB, obviously - like it a lot.

don't treat your assessment of an album like a fact.

mantle of the true music lover...
work of practicing music critics can be replaced by...ranked lists

You are unpacking a whole lotta baggage, assumptions and bullshit that are not mine. I never said any of that shit. For the umpteenth time, I was specifically talking about the problem that fewer people think the Pazz & Jop Poll is relevant and worth their time. So can it be improved? Maybe, but I never said anything about polls having any superiority over criticism.

I don't write traditional reviews quite as much any more. There's plenty of that readily available on a Google search. This is all unpaid work in my increasingly limited free time, so I write about what I want. There is far more to what I do than numbers and blurbs. It includes a series on "underappreciated" music called Between The Cracks (most recently on 80s Aussie Garage Punk. I've written features such as one on reggae engineer Sylvan "My Operator" Morris, 70s soul, a piece on what made five independent music magazines great, tributes to Nação Zumbi, Lee Perry, Curtis Mayfield, Funkadelic, the birth of metal, psych noir, etc.

So you can stop putting words in my mouth, stop making false assumptions about me and take your personal insults and sneering, condescending attitude and suck it.

For over 15 years I've felt that ILM is one of the few civilized safe spaces where you can freely discuss and debate without some dickhead hiding behind an anonymous profile hurling abuse at you that would earn them a slapping in person. I guess I'm wrong about that. Even worse, as soon as there's the smell of blood, others join in on this behavior. Morrisp, sorry to disappoint your expectations. If you can get over lol-ing at my top choice, you might notice that none of the rest of the top ten got any attention, at least no mention on any year-end lists, but are well worth hearing. My #11 and 12 I think made at least one other list. I've done more than merely sample the music I'm advocating. It's soundtracked important good events in my life and helped me get through tragic events.

i’m here to be an asshole about this extremely obnoxious argument

It certainly takes hard work to find good music when many lazy writers can only pick ten good albums out in a year. Yet despite all the shit going on in the world, the amount of surprising, amazing music that's made every year is vast. It's one of humanity's few redeeming qualities. Even if you listen to well over a thousand albums, you'd still miss great stuff. If you think all music is rubbish except for less than 30 albums, then you basically dislike just about ALL THE MUSIC. Last I checked this wasn't the I Hate Music board. And if a person truly believes that the really good stuff can be boiled down to such a small number, I'd be concerned that the lack of ability to enjoy music is a symptom of depression. Try some exercise, sunlight and/or full spectrum light and vitamin D.

― Fastnbulbous, Tuesday, December 25, 2018 11:32 PM (three days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

you’re a really condescending person!!! thanks

here’s how it could’ve gone: “i guess this idea i had about disqualifying people if they didn’t have 25 albums on their list was kinda ill-thought out, bc different people/critics/whatever have different approaches to listening and deep listening isn’t necessarily quantitative”

This is like that SNL Weezer skit but more ridiculous.

I did not intend any personal attack against anyone. That was about the notion that it's somehow suspicious to love more than 30 albums that came out in a year. Yes, I find that idea ridiculous. Getting a few runs in the daylight outdoors, full spectrum lamps and vitamin D do wonders for me personally, and I recommend it to anyone feeling symptoms this winter of S.A.D., or anyone in general. It might even help one control their urges to be petty.

don't treat your assessment of an album like a fact.

Oh, it’s just my opinion for sure! I assumed that was clear. Feel free to disagree / not laff / tell me to kiss off.

(Haha, this is what I get for deviating from my general practice: thread to dis hyped releases that you don't get/don't like/wanna complain about)

what are you even doing with the massive amount of music that you 'find' and list though, is what people are prodding you about and you never say anything meaningful about

― j.

this is my biggest regret about listening to the amount of music i listen to - i don't have the time, or, frankly, the linguistic proficiency, to speak about them in a useful social manner. i am ultimately, i think, going to make a big unranked, unexplained list of the 2018 music i like, but i really wish i could write about them the way the year-end list-makers do.

digging is all well and good but a lot of these more obscure records deserve better than to just find their way onto dozens of copy-pasted rym "best of" lists.

Thanks for the clarification fnb (many xposts)

Also, if I had to put 25 songs, I’d be fucked! I could barely muster 10

for the record I'm not personally insulting anyone, I'm just still trying to find out the rationale behind "larger ballots = more diverse poll results," given that the only evidence for that seems to be "because I said so"

(I was wondering if the expanded Oscar ballot might be a good comparison point but they also moved to preferential voting at the same time so it's not really a clean comparison)

'New' has stopped being a particularly important qualifier for me in deciding what to listen to, and the entirety of pop music history being available on streaming services has played a huge part in this. 10 years ago I might be able to make a legitimate Top 50 albums of the year, because I mostly listened to new stuff and followed blogs and Pitchfork religiously. These days I'm more like, "Wow, how did I not get into Prefab Sprout until now? Now let me go and listen to everything they ever did for the next few months." I'm sure there's lots of great stuff from this year that I've missed - If I get around to it, great. If not, I'm still enjoying music as much as ever, so whatever. But with streaming now it's a little weird to me that people think they should pay attention to like 200 albums from this year just 'cos they...were released this year.

― triggercut, Friday, December 28, 2018 12:04 AM (ten hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This is really otm, I think about it a lot, streaming has really changed my relationship to music, especially the idea of "new music", like if it's new to me, what difference does it make what year it's recorded?

xp -- I would also suspect "the problem that fewer people think the Pazz & Jop poll is relevant and worth their time" has a lot more to do with declining readership of music criticism in general, plus the small side note that there is not a Village Voice anymore

xxp Yup. If I had the time and resources, I'd have better curated tracks playlists, and include gloriously expansive features on all the great bands and artists I like.

I tried getting rid of my "Overrated" paragraph in the past, but many readers asked that I put it back. People like their schadenfreude I guess - case in point, Pazz & Jop pulled multiple quotes from it. Every year certain people zero in on it at the expense of everything else, so I probably will get rid of it again.

katherine - I specifically said that you were not participating in the insults, so no worries. Well, a test case could be the ILM poll. After it's complete and the results are in, one could lop off all entries to 10 votes each and see how it changes the results. Let's say for a random example, Amanda Shires and Georgia Anne Muldrow made just a couple top 10s and don't make the overall top 100. But what if they made the top 25 for a couple dozen people? That could be enough for them to make it into the final results. Whether that makes it better or not is I suppose a subjective value judgement that's up to you, but I feel it would at least more accurately represent the tastes of the poll's participants.

This is really otm, I think about it a lot, streaming has really changed my relationship to music, especially the idea of "new music", like if it's new to me, what difference does it make what year it's recorded?

― Ae$op Rocky (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, December 28, 2018 11:33 AM (thirty-four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah, I've been listening to a lot of older stuff too and I also think part of it is my age.

I don't know why this is having the opposite effect on THE TEEVEE CONVERSATION WHAT WON EMILY NUSSBAUM A PULITZER or whatever. Like why do we need new Rosanne episodes when there's like literally like 80 hours of old Roseanne to watch. Or like the ease in which Filmstruck lets you watch things like Kurosawa and Bergman or w/e but everyone is tweeting that they couldn't watch the sad horse cartoon fast enough

huh? what, is music discourse all about deep discography dives?

everyone is struggling to say new things about the same ephemeral events in both fields

yeah, you're right

But is there a TV show that's like the Blue Nile or the Fishmans of 2018?

probably eventually, it’s a young medium

tell me more about this sad horse cartoon

I could put together a Top 25 by merging my Nashville Scene and P&J, then filling the last five slots with a few from Uproxx (which will not have been quite the same as P&J, since the latter has given me more listening time) and the Imaginary Categories I always stick into the Scene ballot (Cat Power's Wanderer will be on Related Top Ten; not sure about Most Pathetic since Rushton Kelly seems to be actively campaigning for that, and I don't want to encourage him).
This might be good because I still dig the rigor of putting together a Final Ten: Wussy's What Heaven Is Like gives me a buzz that lasts all day, but still seems to be just another very good Wussy album, good for fans but lacking the kind of distinguishing characteristics we get with, say, Attica!. The same could be said of Young Fathers' Cocoa Sugar, but its speedy, stressed vibe and particulars don't need to go any deeper to speak to and for me, much more than the relatively detached shadings (and fun) of What Heaven.... So I may well pick YF over Wussy for P&J (and maybe should not have picked W for Uproxx, but was pressed for listening time).
Or maybe they'll both be on there---anyway, back to the headphones.

Maybe neither one will make it---this is a lifeboat dammit!

Let's say for a random example, Amanda Shires and Georgia Anne Muldrow made just a couple top 10s and don't make the overall top 100. But what if they made the top 25 for a couple dozen people? That could be enough for them to make it into the final results.

― Fastnbulbous, Friday, December 28, 2018 11:57 AM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I feel like a broken record but you still haven't said why the same thing (made only a couple top 10s but appeared in more longlists) could not happen for, say, Courtney Barnett and Janelle Monae

Or like the ease in which Filmstruck lets you watch things like Kurosawa and Bergman or w/e

tell us more about this ease

prob should be in past tense

yeah :(

Well, that was odd - I never got a P&J invite when they first went out, but I just got a "reminder" email, so I logged in and gave them the same Top Ten I gave The Wire (Sons of Kemet, Autechre, Ineffable Demise, Senyawa, Kamasi Washington, DJ Krush, Ingrid Laubrock, Tyshawn Sorey, Henry Threadgill, and the We Out Here compilation).

Cool!

I tried getting rid of my "Overrated" paragraph in the past, but many readers asked that I put it back. People like their schadenfreude I guess - case in point, Pazz & Jop pulled multiple quotes from it. Every year certain people zero in on it at the expense of everything else, so I probably will get rid of it again.

― Fastnbulbous

unsolicited advice: don't write for your "readers", there's little value in feeding your base

to attempt to seriously address your question, i find that having limited resources leads me to skew more obscure. for instance, given 30 slots for nominations i immediately went for stuff nobody knows about - i like the records by janelle monae and the beths, but i don't feel any particular desire to champion them, in contrast, to, for instance, brown calculus. so i'm not personally convinced by your hypothesis that more spaces = more diversity. the only place where having a longer list is interesting, imo, is in the _aggregate_.

^This sounds like Katherine’s point about more slots just leading to more “consensus” picks

wait ...

not sure about Most Pathetic since Rushton Kelly seems to be actively campaigning for that

dow, what do you mean by this?

^This sounds like Katherine’s point about more slots just leading to more “consensus” picks

― underqualified backing vocalist (morrisp)

i think she's right!

xpost, oh good you got the ballot. I was doubting myself (only a little) about the P&J database.

xxxp Hi Alpine. What I mean is, on Dying Star, Ruston Kelly, an avowed fan of Cobain, profanes his memory with the most abject, sniveling apologies for being such a bad, shitty no-good, black sheep, loser, fuck-up, hopeless, when will I ever learn, when will it all be over, little backwater fella, in track after track after track after track, all through the night. Inneresting that he's married to the increasingly positive Kasey Musgraves, who is perhaps overcompensating with the new album, where she's now moved beyond the previous set's bad greeting card verse, beyond bland, beyond anything (but a memory of dissolving vapor trails, mebbe). Kelly eventually bestirs himself into a few flickers of potentially enjoyable pop-country, but too late.

thanks dow. to each his own! i think the RK album is a wonderful collection of well-written, highly relatable and melodically inventive folk-pop songs about being (and wanting to stop being) a bad shitty no-good loser fuck up. if he'd trimmed it down from 14 tracks to, say, 11 or 12, it'd be Top 5 of 2018-worthy. as it is, it's more like Top 15ish.

I voted! In previous years I have always basically treated the album list as The Main Thing, and the songs list as Honorable Mention for smaller achievements. I didn't vote last year, but this year find myself voting the other way around: the song list came first, and the album list is kind of things that seemed great to me, but never quite reached the heights of individual perfection necessary to make the top 10 song list.

Just voted.

What are you guys all fighting about?

Whether to listen to 10 or 1200 new albums each year

and which is better

deadline is noon tomorrow, 9 fuckin a.m. on the West Coast so best to get it done tonight ... in case anyone needed prodding

i did. working on it

i missed it last year because ... i dunno, i guess i thought it was due by midnight or something, like most of these things? anyway.

reminder: this closes in about an hour and a half

(just submitted mine; also, one of the other useful things about glenn's stats is remembering how the fuck I did my score tiers the last time, although every year I change them because the distribution feels wrong)