should i give the grateful dead a chance?

*raises pitchfork, the original “I need to constantly push my musical opinions as annoyingly as possible” mob justice*

Are there really any *bad* Dark Stars, really, man?

Trivia: I've only ever paid for a Grateful Dead anything once, and that was a copy of "Infrared Roses" at the time ('91?), because it sounded cool. The idea of it, that is. In practice ... not so much.

i've heard robert fripp doing "i feel love" with blondie, it's good

I'd never heard this! It's kind of weird but still pretty cool.

Old man yells at “Dark Star”

One thing that surprised me when I first gave a serious listen to the Dead (it was the 8/27/72 “Dark Star” posted on ILM by Scott Seward) was how focused the soloing actually was. There was no marking time or treading water waiting for the next idea to come along; there was absolutely an aim to the soloing, even if that aim seemed to be very far in the distance. Unlike, say, some/most/all live Cream stuff, there were no moments of “shit...um...ok...I guess I’ll just repeat this one Blues Lick until something else occurs to me.”

― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Saturday, June 8, 2019 2:20 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

One of the things I've come to appreciate about Jerry's playing is that even the worst parts of it are kind of necessary to/in service of the best parts of it. He's always reaching for something, and sometimes that means sounding awkward or noodly rather than going for the easy layup lick.

Still, I wish he had a little more space in his playing and took a breath more often. I think it's the bluegrass banjo player in him that felt the need to fill every nanosecond with a note.

Also the best guitar moments for me are the interaction between him and Bobby.

One of the things I've come to appreciate about Jerry's playing is that even the worst parts of it are kind of necessary to/in service of the best parts of it. He's always reaching for something, and sometimes that means sounding awkward or noodly rather than going for the easy layup lick.

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive)

I think that's what makes me so conflicted about him as a guitar player. His playing is so... ruminative. Often he sounds like he's reaching for something, but he never gets there, because there isn't, really, a "there" to get to. You'll have your occasional resolution, but it's only really a secondary resolution; there's some deep tension in his playing that only rarely dissipates completely.

His playing is so... ruminative. Often he sounds like he's reaching for something, but he never gets there, because there isn't, really, a "there" to get to. You'll have your occasional resolution, but it's only really a secondary resolution; there's some deep tension in his playing that only rarely dissipates completely.

fair, but you could also be describing any number of jazz greats

Often he sounds like he's reaching for something, but he never gets there, because there isn't, really, a "there" to get to. You'll have your occasional resolution, but it's only really a secondary resolution; there's some deep tension in his playing that only rarely dissipates completely.

this is beautifully put - for me, that's entirely a positive; I don't want him to get where he's going. I love the never-resolving nature of what he does - it's something I don't think Weir really gets, Weir is very much looking for the peak, the spike, the apex. Jerry at his best sounds like he'd be content to sort of think about what the summit might be like until he dies in the clouds a couple of hundred feet beneath it. but for you, that's often a negative! which I get. Schencker soloing in UFO for example -- always hits the resolve, always finds a deeply satisfying narrative through-line.

In a way Garcia is an impressionist: not a term you'd generally associate with bluegrass dudes. I do think, though, on the acoustic live sets or in his solo stuff, he demonstrates that he's perfectly capable of more trad approaches to soloing. his role in the Dead is different.

The fact that he's not questing for some summit is congenial to me, it's the thing I like most about his playing. The initial appeal of the Dead to me was recognizing that this was a band who exist in the moment, which is what music tends to boil down to for me these days. The negative part of it, for me, is that my use of the term "ruminative" implies the mental health meaning of the term. I don't think that most jazz greats have that approach, though probably some of them do; that compulsion to dig deeper within oneself is a tendency that I know very well and that has been very dangerous to me. I listen to something like Tiger and it sounds to me like he's cutting - in the mental health sense, not the jazz sense.

yeah that's a deep thing with which I'd generally agree ("generally" because I think several of my favorite jazz greats are in the same restless sort of spot) -- what they're doing is deeply personal, and probably connects to deep stuff: solving their own problems, or engaging them, by playing. that appeals to me where I'm presently at: when I was a young man I hated the whole idea of it! but now I think differently.

that's why it took me the longest to come around to the big improv setpieces (playing in the band/dark star), i spent so much time listening to dark star waiting for the point of it all and it took a mental adjustment to learn to just appreciate the journey (maaaaan....).

i think after you really get a feel for garcia's playing, you can sort of map his intentions and it becomes much more evocative and absorbing, you can hear the swirling heart of the universe where others just hear a noodly mess. it's really difficult to force the dead on people, you kinda have to approach on your own terms.

I still really can't get into Dark Star or some of the longer improvs - I feel like they didn't quite have the facility to go as out as they were trying to go in a successful way

the "dark star" on live/dead confirmed me as a deadhead. i like to put it on when i'm writing (i've probably written this exact post upthread)

I'll give that one a shot. I tried a couple others recently.

Oh, I guess we talked about the one from filmore east 1970 upthread, 14 years ago.

smoke yourself out a little bit beforehand (if you're into that) and take the ride

it's a little atypical but the 2/18/71 dark star -> wharf rat -> "beautiful jam" dark star is imo the dead's finest moment

I'm partial to Paris 5/4/72

https://www.discogs.com/Grateful-Dead-Dark-Star/release/3549571

I think this thread has moved into the kind of talk that discourages people from “giving the grateful dead a chance”! 😂😂

I watched a clip from one of the more recent Dead & Co. shows and it was...actually pretty good? John Mayer's playing was more Jerry-like and less one-dimensional than I expected tbh. I almost wished he was being a little less reverent and freaking out a little more, but I enjoyed the interaction between him and the keyboard player, and Bill and Mickey were tighter than I was expecting, if a hair sluggish.

I recently learned that dudes who dig the new Dead & Co thing are referred to as "CoBros"

looool

is that pejorative?

I didn't get that sense, no

that 2/14/70 DS is fantastic, the other one on that dicks picks also rips if you skip the 9 minute drum into

i'm actually listening to Dick's Picks Vol 4 right now, this might be the best Dead I've heard

I was listening to the Portland Memorial 5/19/74 started great but they butchered the fuck out of Box of Rain to such a degree I quit, so weird how they killed China Cat and Rider then sounded like a substandard bar band that half learned their own song

Phil's live vocals are always horrendous

their inability to play "box of rain" well in a live setting is pretty baffling — probably Lesh's fault.
lol xp

so weird how they killed {x song] then sounded like a substandard bar band that half learned their own song

"in every Grateful Dead show ever"

I recently learned that dudes who dig the new Dead & Co thing are referred to as "CoBros"

I'll be going to my fourth and fifth Dead & Co. shows this weekend and I have never heard this before. If it's a thing, I'm guessing it was coined by the Dead & Co. deniers.

While they are definitely no Dead and the slow tempos absolutely kill me sometimes, the vibe of the shows are incredibly fun. Oteil and Jeff are the (not so) secret MVPs of this configuration and Josh fits in way better than I could have ever imagined. I don't ever spend time listening to Dead & Co. shows at home, but I've had a lot of fun each time I've seen them.

I saw it in a slang-drenched wook meme that I can't bring myself to post but you should see it if you GIS for "primally puddled"

Ha, I don't spend a lot of time in wook meme world, so that may explain it. I wouldn't doubt it's a thing in some circles though.

I've been really high on Morning Dew from Europe 72 lately. I just went and listened to the Cornell 77 version and it's amazing how much less magical it sounds, almost like a cover band playing the same song.

Yeah, "Morning Dew" is one of the few songs that I don't think translated very well to their '77 style.

studio box of rain is a gorgeous, wistful meditation on life and loss that sounds like the universe itself telling you everything will be ok. live box of rain is an out of tune trainwreck w/ grandpa simpson on vocals.

ha that is a great description but not ALWAYS true! they tightened Box of Rain up considerably in 89/90 I think

this is some excellent dead conversation btw, keep it coming

agreed!

I've been mostly spending time in 1970, thanks to Dave's Picks 30 (1/2/70 & 1/3/70). The Live/Dead suite ("Dark Star > St. Stephen > Eleven") is great, but I'm surprised by how much I keep going back to the Pig tunes on this one.

mentioned above, but the save your face blog is an excellent resource for various weird corners of Dead sounds ... http://saveyourface.posthaven.com/
was just listening to a 1983 rehearsal that (no joke) was a dead ringer for Arthur Russell.

Save Your Face is a must read.

Assuming everyone is up on Thoughts on the Dead, love someone that clearly loves the band but is unafraid to puncture the mythology.

so weird how they killed China Cat and Rider then sounded like a substandard bar band that half learned their own song

yes, and they're up against one of their best studio moments ever & one of their finest songs -- Box of Rain is an outlier I think, doesn't really fit it with their live look at all. It is disappointing that they never, to the best of my knowledge, figure out a way to make it work live, it's so good, despite trying over 100 times.

save your face blog rules even though it hasn't quite converted me to 94 just yet. deadessays blogspot is also fun to read through if you want to get deep, deep into the weeds, i discovered the 6/24/70 aud from there, now one of my all time faves.

Though defunct, http://www.deadlistening.com/ led me to some great shows, but it may exceed one's tolerance for the type of comments mentioned a few posts up:

Here the audience tape provides a glimpse into the sonic tidal wave of the Grateful Dead in a fashion not readily available in any other tape this reviewer can bring to memory. After the “lady finger” section of the song proves to be intensely personal - it is so within the head that the head expands to fill all space - the flash pot/gunshot that follows becomes an endgame for the senses. The music becomes enormous, even cataclysmic, as if towering forces are locked in battle. Galaxies collide, exploding in endless eruptions. Above it all, a cymbal swell begins to take form, certainly a mainstay portion of this tune. But this tape brings it into bone bleaching focus. The swell begins to level everything in its path, yet the music muscles its way even higher. Nothing is left of personal space. There is no room left. Here, we are lost to the music. We are gone. And the sound wall continues to roar. This one passage delivers the goods so completely, it starts to make sense why people would religiously follow the band from show to show for decades. You come out on the other side wondering, what just happened? Sensational.

that's almost poll-worthy

lol it's hard to remember sometimes that those cosmic pronouncements are about the same band that could also produce this (on the same site!)

Mind you, I am walking you into Bob’s “learn slide guitar on the job” phase, and I apologize in advance for this. Haven’t heard about how bad Bob was on slide? Well, my friends… there is little to say, and painfully plenty to hear.

Sometimes I just wonder if deadheads have ever heard any other bands before.

It makes for ideal pastures as far as I’m concerned. And in listening to the more exploratory expanses of this fine show I am continually brought to the state of mind where my eyes can no longer perceive the physical space around me. The vivid imagery which floods my vision while my eyes are closed tight suffuses everything continually. And in that vision where light burns around shadows and perspective swims in a sea of joy, I am repeatedly exposed to a musical journey which seems to travel through a landscape constructed of a Mandelbrot set fractal.

I kid, rather than mock — I wish something would move me as much as any given Dead show moves this blogger!

Sometimes I just wonder if deadheads have ever heard any other bands before.

In my experience, most Deadheads I've met fall into one of two camps - all Dead/Garcia all the time, or voracious listeners with surprisingly varied tastes.

i respect the Dead for a few reasons:
- the loyalty they inspire
- the band and its followers' role in tape and bootleg culture
- a few decent studio cuts

otherwise, i'm totally lost as to what the fuck is the big deal. most of it is unlistenable garbage even if one is high as giraffe balls.

(and like posters at the beginning of the thread, i've tried plenty of times, i sold drugs when i was an Oberlin student)

xp yeah obviously the second kind exist in good numbers, but it's the first kind that's sort of dumbfounding sometimes. They talk like Jerry invented improvising, like no other band has ever gone "outside," like john coltrane hadn't already made his most experimental albums and died by the time the first grateful dead record came out (roughly), like there wasn't also stuff like electric Miles and Mahavishnu orchestra by the time Europe 72 came out, etc.