should i give the grateful dead a chance?

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tbf i have come to terms with some of this in UK terms (white 60s blues is a problematically interesting phenom, i am sorta kinda here for rory gallagher if not clapton lol) and possibly can for this ur-version full of unrelated stuff i bridle against for different reasons BUT

― mark s

i mean, green and kirwan's fleetwood mac, what more need be said?

Kate (rushomancy), Thursday, 20 February 2020 15:06 (four years ago) link

and my ultimate conclusion is that the dead, pre-hiatus, were on some fundamental level a drug gang masquerading as a rock group.

this makes them sound so much cooler than i've ever been able to find them

Generous Grant for Stepladder Creamery (bizarro gazzara), Thursday, 20 February 2020 15:10 (four years ago) link

drugs aren't cool, bg.

Kate (rushomancy), Thursday, 20 February 2020 15:12 (four years ago) link

It makes them sound like the 13th Floor Elevators, which would be a good idea.

Load up your rubber wallets (Tom D.), Thursday, 20 February 2020 15:13 (four years ago) link

ward's point re television was surely less "omg they sound alike" than "omg actually in both cases the live jams are where it's at not the non-live LPs" (hence marquee moon being through-composed is not really a data point)

(viz "strong similarity between verlaine/lloyd and garcia/lesh/weir interactions" is more abt in-band telepathy and mutual response than soundalike)

(ok "moments when garcia and richard thompson sound very similar" lol ward can pick this claim up and defend it, but even so one player sounding like another doesn't at all mean the bands sound alike)

mark s, Thursday, 20 February 2020 15:16 (four years ago) link

too easy to cream off the topline white uk blues voices -- the mac lads, trower -- and still consider the broader vulgar form as really not worth bothering with: but i was saying ok i turned around on this from age 17 and a year-zero dick and made my peace with the form at large, problems and all (inc.such good-not-bad half-gortten mid-level representatives as rory) (but not clapton who is never not extremely boring to me as well as being a terrible person)

mark s, Thursday, 20 February 2020 15:21 (four years ago) link

i was going to inject some arcane joke abt using the phrase "cream off" there but (a) forgot and (b) fuck you

mark s, Thursday, 20 February 2020 15:21 (four years ago) link

I agree the Dead are sui generis; and I certainly doubt it “helps” to come in expecting them to sound like anyone other than the Dead.

You have seen the heavy groups (morrisp), Thursday, 20 February 2020 15:32 (four years ago) link

Or even expecting them to be good, imo.

Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 20 February 2020 15:38 (four years ago) link

KInd of interesting to listen to the progressive chinese whisper element as bands move further away from the original source material that Cream or the Yardbirds or whoever pick up on and learn from the influenced bands as the source.

Stevolende, Thursday, 20 February 2020 15:39 (four years ago) link

xp, kind of! I actually wonder how many people ever loved the Dead on first listen, as opposed to having something “click” after repeated exposure.

You have seen the heavy groups (morrisp), Thursday, 20 February 2020 15:43 (four years ago) link

Do really wonder what it was I was expecting the Dead to sound like before I heard them. Cos I heard tehm about 35 years ago.
BUt the idea of a band beloved of the Hell's Angels would never have wound up with one sounding much like tehm I don't think or at least not after about 1970.
THink I might have imagined something sounding a lot closer to Buffalo or something. A lot heavier and stoned. Sludge rock type maybe.

Stevolende, Thursday, 20 February 2020 15:49 (four years ago) link

After reading an "Altamont" book, I'm pretty confident 99% of the connection between the Angels and Dead was drugs.

Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 20 February 2020 15:51 (four years ago) link

Re: the Dead & Television - the answer Mark S gave is better than the one I wrote (but yes, I was trying to get at the ENTWINED nature of the Dead and Television's group playing - I think Verlaine always insisted that Coltrane was his main early influence).

It's bullshit that only Britishes make the Dead/Television comparison tho - here"s Christgau on Television just for starters:

This is a strange kind of guitar band. The obvious forerunners are the Byrds and the Grateful Dead, even to Tom Verlaine's long lead lines, which recall McGuinn and (especially) Garcia, although Verlaine's attack is a lot rawer.

Ward Fowler, Thursday, 20 February 2020 15:57 (four years ago) link

In the old Rolling Stone Record Guide, Dave Marsh calls Verlaine “an interesting Jerry Garcia–influenced guitarist who lacked melodic ideas or any emotional sensibility.”

You have seen the heavy groups (morrisp), Thursday, 20 February 2020 16:07 (four years ago) link

lol waht

Generous Grant for Stepladder Creamery (bizarro gazzara), Thursday, 20 February 2020 16:08 (four years ago) link

I remember when I first heard Television way back when learning that they got Dead comparisons overseas. But Xgau aside, I'd never heard that comparison here. I guess others made it, too? Or it's possible it was just critical butt sniffing. Anyway, def. weird that any critic would compare Verlaine to Garcia then say he "lacked melodic ideas or any emotional sensibility," which are two hallmarks (imo) of Garcia's playing, like him or not. Verlaine could indeed be cold, though.

Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 20 February 2020 16:10 (four years ago) link

Television guitars remind me more of Quicksilver Messenger Service

Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 20 February 2020 16:16 (four years ago) link

Yes, that's there too, though QMS are probably even more disappointing to my ears that the Dead.

Load up your rubber wallets (Tom D.), Thursday, 20 February 2020 16:20 (four years ago) link

happy to tweak xgau all kinds of ways but he's not a lazy critic in that particular way. marsh does not get this indulgence from me lol

mark s, Thursday, 20 February 2020 16:28 (four years ago) link

Marsh is the absolute worst

sleeve, Thursday, 20 February 2020 16:31 (four years ago) link

No, Xgau I can totally believe making the comparison (even if, or especially if, he was being confrontational with it). Marsh I can totally believe fronting.

Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 20 February 2020 16:51 (four years ago) link

Wow, just learned about this (remastered versions of their GDR stuff) -- love these albums: https://store.dead.net/grateful-dead-records-collection-digital-box.html

It's also on vinyl, but not CD (sadly)... I would buy if it were :(

Ticket Tout (morrisp), Thursday, 20 February 2020 18:00 (four years ago) link

After reading an "Altamont" book, I'm pretty confident 99% of the connection between the Angels and Dead was drugs.

― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, February 20, 2020 7:51 AM (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

the HA seem to have an enduring love of jam bands as they were big supporters of my gf's dad's jam band in the 80s/early 90s in the vancouver area

frederik b. godt (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 20 February 2020 18:04 (four years ago) link

I never knew about this, but maybe you did?

In the 1980s and 1990s, there was a major expansion of the club into Canada. The Quebec Biker war was a violent turf war that began in 1994 and continued until late 2002 in Montreal. The war began as the Hells Angels in Quebec began to make a push to establish a monopoly on street-level drug sales in the province. A number of drug dealers and crime families resisted and established groups such as the "Alliance to fight the Angels". The war resulted in the bombings of many establishments and murders on both sides. It has claimed more than 150 lives and led to the incarceration of over 100 bikers.

Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 20 February 2020 19:00 (four years ago) link

And anyway:

an enduring love of jam bands

Jam bands=drugs=Hells Angels.

Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 20 February 2020 19:01 (four years ago) link

truly it is a mystery

Οὖτις, Thursday, 20 February 2020 19:06 (four years ago) link

I never knew about this, but maybe you did?

In the 1980s and 1990s, there was a major expansion of the club into Canada. The Quebec Biker war was a violent turf war that began in 1994 and continued until late 2002 in Montreal. The war began as the Hells Angels in Quebec began to make a push to establish a monopoly on street-level drug sales in the province. A number of drug dealers and crime families resisted and established groups such as the "Alliance to fight the Angels". The war resulted in the bombings of many establishments and murders on both sides. It has claimed more than 150 lives and led to the incarceration of over 100 bikers.
― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, February 20, 2020 11:00 AM (five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

canadian organized crime is very weird. multi-ethnic gangs called like "united nations" and shit allying with, or against the hells angels, to control meth sales or whatever. sketchy as hell

frederik b. godt (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 20 February 2020 19:07 (four years ago) link

Man would it suck to be in a band and have the Hells Angels into you.

Always worth posting this:

https://www.beatlesbible.com/wp/media/681204_george-harrison-hells-angels-memo-apple-580x386.jpg

The story goes that the UK had sort of a fake HA club, and that George et al. were not prepared for the real deal, and had to hustle to get them out of there.

And speaking of the HA and Canada:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccyu44rsaZo

Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 20 February 2020 19:31 (four years ago) link

"straighten out" Czechoslovakia?

the Thompson book is essential imo

sleeve, Thursday, 20 February 2020 19:36 (four years ago) link

The story goes that the UK had sort of a fake HA club, and that George et al. were not prepared for the real deal, and had to hustle to get them out of there.

There's some footage of the UK HA in the 1969 The Stones in the Park movie. Literally just pimply teens in leather jackets and Nazi medals, for the most part.

blatherskite, Thursday, 20 February 2020 20:20 (four years ago) link

You make them sound like the Bromley Contingent!

Ward Fowler, Thursday, 20 February 2020 20:27 (four years ago) link

I think there was a bit more to British HA than pimply teens tbf - in fact they're still around and occasionally causing mayhem, though only with each other.

Load up your rubber wallets (Tom D.), Thursday, 20 February 2020 20:30 (four years ago) link

more discussion re the "fake uk hells angels" from upthread: should i give the grateful dead a chance?

(i still basically think the apple incident is overstated, greatly amped up in retrospect to make a funnier story)

mark s, Thursday, 20 February 2020 20:36 (four years ago) link

we were all pimply teens once! plus the UKHA must have had a start-point when it wasn't very daunting, however hard they later became

mark s, Thursday, 20 February 2020 20:38 (four years ago) link

Do the UKHA turn up at Cropready? I know it's a big magnet for bikers in general (my sister used to live in Cropready). If so - another Fairport/Dead connec!

Ward Fowler, Thursday, 20 February 2020 20:40 (four years ago) link

xpost Yeah, I had a hunch I posted about it already.

I dunno, I get the impression the Hell's Angels as they are today are nowhere near the bad hombres that they were back then.

Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 20 February 2020 20:43 (four years ago) link

I mean in terms of national menace. I have no doubt that almost every Hell's Angel member is bad news, but their prominence has declined, or at least has been fully absorbed into other bad organizations.

Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 20 February 2020 20:52 (four years ago) link

it's a good question, though. Bike gangs used to be go to boogeyman in pop culture, but not so much anymore.

Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 20 February 2020 20:54 (four years ago) link

we've had a lot of go-to boogeymen - communists, islamic terrorists, teenage hoodlums, biker gangs, black people, brown people, techbros, hippies

Οὖτις, Thursday, 20 February 2020 20:57 (four years ago) link

I'm Irish and I like the Dead.

Duke, Thursday, 20 February 2020 21:28 (four years ago) link

the branch in my city was just a meth trafficking ring fwiw

global tetrahedron, Thursday, 20 February 2020 21:29 (four years ago) link

Here in Berlin the Hells Angels and their rivals the Bandidos are involved in organised crime and kill each other now and again

Duke, Thursday, 20 February 2020 21:37 (four years ago) link

I never got why people (OK, often Brits) apparently compared (or I guess compare?) Television to the Grateful Dead. While I concede they both have guitars, beyond that I don't hear it.

And the guitar sound isn't really the same. The Feelies, on the other hand, on songs like "Slipping (Into Something)" and "Find a Way," have guitars that are totally Grateful Dead-like--Grateful Dead guitars + Lou Reed vocals.

clemenza, Thursday, 20 February 2020 21:42 (four years ago) link

Heh, if anything I think the Feelies sound even less like the Dead!

Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 20 February 2020 21:53 (four years ago) link

yeah I don't hear that at all, the propulsion and krautrock rhythms are so central to the Feelies for one thing

Οὖτις, Thursday, 20 February 2020 21:56 (four years ago) link

is there an era when propulsion is an actual GD thing?

mark s, Thursday, 20 February 2020 21:57 (four years ago) link

“Touch of Grey” maybe.

o. nate, Thursday, 20 February 2020 21:58 (four years ago) link

"Alabama Getaway", "Shakedown Street", a lot of the post '77 stuff imo

sleeve, Thursday, 20 February 2020 22:00 (four years ago) link


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