there's still humor poking through, and occasional moments of tenderness and then hey don't forget FIRE AND BRIMSTONE
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 5 March 2020 20:39 (four years ago) link
it's esp jarring because so much 70's pop-Christianity was inclusive and liberal e.g. Godspell, the Good News Bible, the communal "Jesus movement" etc., this is the v much the Reagan-era advent of evangelism as conservatism
but fuck yeah this set kicks so much ass
― Webcam Du Bois (Hadrian VIII), Thursday, 5 March 2020 20:44 (four years ago) link
yeah it does coincide w Reaganism but my memories of the 80s evangelism revival doesn't really fit Dylan either - those guys were transparent hucksters in the faith healer tradition, constantly bursting into tears and dancing and reveling in opulence and the GLORY and btw send money
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 5 March 2020 20:49 (four years ago) link
Bakker, Swaggart, Falwell, Robertson - Dylan bears at best a passing resemblance to those clowns. To a man they projected an avuncular happiness (and venality) that Dylan doesn't go anywhere near.
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 5 March 2020 20:50 (four years ago) link
I probably said it upthread but for a Christian album I sure get cocaine vibes from Trouble No Moredef one of the best of the bootleg series, ruined me on the studio albums
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 5 March 2020 20:51 (four years ago) link
xp but I do think it's consistent with the liberal drift at the time though, still righteous but increasingly exclusionary and no doubt some of those SoCal yuppies hit thirty and stayed on for Ralph Reed et al
― Webcam Du Bois (Hadrian VIII), Thursday, 5 March 2020 20:53 (four years ago) link
I've listened to a good number of shows from this period, and I agree with the assessment that the live performances smoke the studio recordings. When i pay more attention to the instrumentalists and the arrangements over anything else, the "Trouble No More" set is much more enjoyable than I'd expect. But eventually one's focus has to shift to the words, as well as Dylan's singing, and I can't say either helped in holding my interest. Sometimes, Dylan sounds re-invigorated in his righteous fury, but this can come on as relentless hectoring after a while. On some of the slower numbers, his voice cracks and breaks apart in a way that's cringe-inducing (see the live renditions of "I Believe in You"). And then there's the words. It's interesting to see Dylan apply the same methods he's always used in writing lyrics to Biblical sources - with each phase of his career, he mines rich new territory for material, whether it's folk songs or poetry or the Bible, and his approach to fragmenting them and fusing them back together in novel, even revelatory ways rarely fails to astonish. But the results here are pretty mixed. Quite a few lyrics, even entire verses, are not just awful but pretty offensive. Check out the title track of 'Slow Train Coming' and the verse about "Sheiks walkin' around like kings / Wearing fancy jewels and nose rings" - fortunately, Dylan dropped this from later performances, but it's there in the earlier ones. FWIW, in at least one case, it took someone else to really elevate a song or two into something truly transcendent. Sinead O'Connor's "I Believe in You" comes to mind - a beautifully fragile and moving rendition was released on one of those 'A Very Special Christmas' compilations (I think the second volume), and far more than Dylan's renditions, it's very moving to hear how religion can be a true lifeline for someone singing that song. (O'Connor's version was recorded soon after she was booed off the stage at Dylan's 30th anniversary concert, an experience that was very traumatizing. Not long after that, she attempted suicide, but even without knowing that, you get the sense she's hanging by a thread in "I Believe in You.")
― birdistheword, Thursday, 5 March 2020 20:54 (four years ago) link
xp Dylan and those ppl were really starting to lean into the "values" stuff, anti-abortion, homophobia that would come to define evangelism
― Webcam Du Bois (Hadrian VIII), Thursday, 5 March 2020 20:56 (four years ago) link
bird solid post but grafs my man
― Webcam Du Bois (Hadrian VIII), Thursday, 5 March 2020 20:57 (four years ago) link
I do love that Sinead version, it's always funny to me that "no one sings Dylan like Dylan" but at the same time so covers that do seem to elevate the material
― Webcam Du Bois (Hadrian VIII), Thursday, 5 March 2020 20:59 (four years ago) link
so *many* covers
Dylan and those ppl were really starting to lean into the "values" stuff, anti-abortion, homophobia
? where are the anti-abortion and homophobia in Dylan's lyrics?
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 5 March 2020 21:51 (four years ago) link
Check out the title track of 'Slow Train Coming' and the verse about "Sheiks walkin' around like kings / Wearing fancy jewels and nose rings"
this line doesn't bother me at all tbh
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 5 March 2020 21:56 (four years ago) link
it's offensive to sheiks!
― tylerw, Thursday, 5 March 2020 21:58 (four years ago) link
the line is also literally true so wgaf
the anti-OPEC implication in the verse is a little more suspect but really who cares, they *were* fucking with America!
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 5 March 2020 22:00 (four years ago) link
iirc he called SF "a dwelling place for homoseluals" on stage but that stuff was all obv excised for this set
I also remember him also being anti-birth control in an RS interview dring this period...and aren't there a couple songs on Infidels that condemn abortion?
― Webcam Du Bois (Hadrian VIII), Thursday, 5 March 2020 22:05 (four years ago) link
I can not type
idk I've never heard Infidels tbh!
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 5 March 2020 22:18 (four years ago) link
he did say this around the time of infidels, which doesn't seem all that well thought out, but:
Well, I think birth control is another hoax that women shouldn’t have bought, but they did buy. I mean, if a man don’t wanna knock up a woman, that’s his problem, you know what I mean? It’s interesting: They arrest prostitutes, but they never arrest the guys with the prostitutes. It’s all very one-sided. And the same with birth control. Why do they make women take all them pills and fuck themselves up like that? People have used contraceptives for years and years and years. So all of a sudden some scientist invents a pill, and it’s a billion dollar industry. So we’re talkin’ about money. How to make money off of a sexual idea. “Yeah, you can go out and fuck anybody you want now; just take this pill.” You know? And it puts that in a person’s mind: “Yeah, if I take a pill. . . .” But who knows what those pills do to a person? I think they’re gonna be passé. But they’ve caused a lot of damage, a lot of damage.
So it’s the man’s responsibility? Vasectomy’s the best way?I think so. A man don’t wanna get a woman pregnant, then he’s gotta take care of it. Otherwise, that’s just ultimate abuse, you know?
― tylerw, Thursday, 5 March 2020 22:19 (four years ago) link
SF *is* a dwelling place for homosexuals and proud of it btw
xp
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 5 March 2020 22:19 (four years ago) link
It's innaresting how angry and uninviting Dylan's version of xtianity is. Like, very little of it is uplifting or rapturous or thankful, a lot of it focuses on the harsh, judgmental end of things, not really the kind of angle that wins a lot of converts.
― Οὖτις, Thursday, March 5, 2020 3:21 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink
I feel qualified on this topic because I grew up in the 70s and early 80s in a non-denominational evangelical church that was a lot like this. Most of the members of the church (including my parents) were ex-hippies who came to the Church in a type of rejection of the excesses of the 60s. I am talking about Paul on the road to Damascus stuff. The entire feeling in our church was straight out of the Gospels/Revelations when the christian church was in it's early days: christians as a persecuted minority surrounded by wickedness at every turn who must stay strong for the end times coming soon. A lot of the hippie stuff still came through in the way members took care of each other and the general church community, but the primary thing I remember was the visceral feeling that the struggle for your soul was a day-to-day battle with the forces of the world shot through with Old Testament fire and brimstone: god is a living being, who is coming back soon, and he is going to punish the non-believers and you don't want to be one of them. I find Chick tracts funny but I heard similar shit daily/weekly.
A lot of the christian period has a similar vibe to the 60s protest songs. Dylan sells Christianity just as hard as he sold the civil rights movement. Dylan's projection of a sense of righteousness in the cause and the accusatory outrage at the injustice of civil rights, in say, "Hattie Carroll", is very similar to the righteousness and accusatory outrage he deploys at the wicked world of unbelievers.
I can see ums' point about the coke vibes on this stuff, especially the album cover where Dylan is in the army jacket and looks like a strung out Vietnam Vet. I also get a vibe of a guy who has a drinking problem (my recollection is that Bob started down the road to alcoholism in the late 70s), finds God, and for a short time the joy of his strong, newfound religion keeps him from drinking. But as the initial excitement of his conversion starts to wear off, the guy starts having to "white-knuckling" it: he thinks if he just proclaims his faith a little louder or proselytizes a little harder he can get that initial feeling back. Some of the coke vibes start to come off to me like the hysteria of someone trying to hold on to their belief/stop drinking.
― Biden my time/Drinking her wine (PBKR), Thursday, 5 March 2020 22:19 (four years ago) link
shakey you gotta hear infidels!
― tylerw, Thursday, 5 March 2020 22:20 (four years ago) link
I have never been able to locate a copy, can't find downloadable mp3s of it etc
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 5 March 2020 22:21 (four years ago) link
(granted I haven't tried *that* hard, it looks like it probably sounds kind of bad)
xp I think some of that birth control vasectomy stuff is due to Bob fathering a couple of children in the late 70s/early 80s and having to pay child support.
― Biden my time/Drinking her wine (PBKR), Thursday, 5 March 2020 22:22 (four years ago) link
Yeah, Infidels is really great in its own way, though obviously flawed.
― Biden my time/Drinking her wine (PBKR), Thursday, 5 March 2020 22:23 (four years ago) link
haha wouldn't surprise me - good post btw
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 5 March 2020 22:23 (four years ago) link
I think this is Infidels-period? Still pretty fire and brimstone! (Also backed by the Heartbreakers!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxGzJQV1MI0
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 5 March 2020 22:24 (four years ago) link
wait I meant this onehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sG_Qlb5C4Xk
As someone who tried the pill and found it came with a fun side effect of crippling anxiety that wasn't listed on the box, I have a certain sympathy with the bonkers ramblings about birth control.
― The fillyjonk who believed in pandemics (Lily Dale), Thursday, 5 March 2020 22:26 (four years ago) link
produced by Tom Petty!
No. It isn't fire 'n' brimstone.
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 5 March 2020 22:26 (four years ago) link
lol I don't think he meant this in chamber-of-commerce boostery way
― Webcam Du Bois (Hadrian VIII), Thursday, 5 March 2020 22:26 (four years ago) link
anyway for better and worse Dylan is just a vessel for brain farts
― Webcam Du Bois (Hadrian VIII), Thursday, 5 March 2020 22:27 (four years ago) link
I should point out that much Christian evangelism has NOT been inclusive, and I don't mean this pejoratiely; there's a tradition stretching centuries back in which the point is to separate the saved from the damned. This theology coincides with Dylan's lifelong penchant for pointing fingers at enemies. It's obvious, which is why the rockcrit establishment's myopia during this period stands out.
Infidels has "Jokerman," a top five Dylan track, a pleasant misogynist trifle called "Sweetheart Like You," and six or seven examples of well-played, thoughtfully produced twaddle.
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 5 March 2020 22:28 (four years ago) link
*pejoratively
Dylan's Presbyterian period.
― Load up your rubber wallets (Tom D.), Thursday, 5 March 2020 22:29 (four years ago) link
It's HELL TIME, MAN
xps
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 5 March 2020 22:29 (four years ago) link
here are bob's really coherent thoughts on san francisco:
Long time ago they used to have these Greek plays, I guess, pretty long time ago. Anyway now they have groups called actors, you know that. Back then they had actors too, but they called them hypocrites. That's right! There'd be like a play, like a play with thirty people in it, but actually there'd only be four. They all used to wear masks. They'd all come out in a mask, [Dylan says a few words in a high-pitched voice] talk in another voice. They’d just wear a mask. So four people could play the part of thirty people. That's a heavy responsibility, keeps you on your toes. Never know who you are, so there's a lot of hypocrites. They're talking, you know, using Jesus' name, but don't you let that put you off, cause you're still dealing with the world. Jesus has overcome the world, that's what he did at the Cross. As simple as that. You may think it's complicated, but actually if you look at Jesus you gotta look at the Cross. Actually if you're wondering why all these things are happening these days. Joshua you know he went to, I believe it was Canaan land and God told him at certain times to destroy all the Canaanites, every man, women and children there. That's bad! He certainly hated to leave the children, but they were just all defiled. And there was some cities that he said, "oh go in there yeah" and Joshua wondered why, and God said because their iniquity is not yet full. So now, when you look around today, when we started out this tour, we started out in San Francisco. And ..., that's a ... San Francisco is a kind of a unique town these days. I think it's either one third or two thirds of the population there are homosexuals. All right! I guess they're working up to a 100 per cent, I don't know. Anyway, it’s a growing place for homosexuals, and I read they have a homosexuals politics, it’s a political party, I don't mean it's going on in somebody’s closet, I mean it's just political. All right, you know what I'm talking about. Anyway would just think ..., I guess the iniquity’s not yet full, and I don't wanna be around when it is!
― tylerw, Thursday, 5 March 2020 22:30 (four years ago) link
Are those lyrics
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 5 March 2020 22:32 (four years ago) link
you know what I'm talkin about
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 5 March 2020 22:32 (four years ago) link
lol
― tylerw, Thursday, 5 March 2020 22:34 (four years ago) link
xp I think Band of the Hand is a couple years later like 85/86, but he definitely kept up that fire and brimstone vibe. In fact, a lot of the apocalyptic blues stuff in the late 90s and early 2000s like "Cold Irons Bound", "Tweedly Dee and Tweedly Dum", and "High Water", and even the movie "Masked and Anonymous" are the descendants of the christian period with a lot more humor.
― Biden my time/Drinking her wine (PBKR), Thursday, 5 March 2020 22:36 (four years ago) link
"Masked and Anonymous" is underrated
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 5 March 2020 22:37 (four years ago) link
it's pretty stupid but there's some really good stuff in there
Re: "Slow Train," the verse in question wasn't just putting across a dubious argument, it framed it in a way that came off as pretty jingoistic, and when I go back to it after listening to the whole album, it feels offensively intolerant. (This is placed in context with what else was being said throughout the album: "you either got faith or you got unbelief / and there's no neutral ground," "you were tellin' him about Mohammed in one breath / You never mentioned one time the Man who came / And died a criminal's death," and on and on...)
I find nothing interesting or compelling about the "you non-believers are all going to hell" screeds - the few songs I do like from this period aren't like that at all, and they're great, complex spirituals, but the rest is just puerile.
― birdistheword, Thursday, 5 March 2020 23:37 (four years ago) link
eh I love lots of "you nonbelievers are going to hell" music. Tons of reggae, the Louvin Brothers, etc. Thinking of this in the context of Dylan's earlier folk "finger-pointing" songs is appropriate imo.
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 5 March 2020 23:40 (four years ago) link
I don't know what anyone's access is like to CD retailers is these days, but the Infidels remaster has been a budget CD ($5-7) for years now.
― a bevy of supermodels, musicians and Lena Dunham (C. Grisso/McCain), Thursday, 5 March 2020 23:47 (four years ago) link
I feel like Infidels is a used record store staple, unless it was unusually popular in Minnesota
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 5 March 2020 23:50 (four years ago) link
what's a CD
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 5 March 2020 23:51 (four years ago) link
it's a compact disc :)underrated format!
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 5 March 2020 23:52 (four years ago) link