"Drawn Into the Flight Path of the Sounds": Xenakis Listening Thread

On to the second Zyia, which seems more dramatic somehow? And the comparisons to Greek folk music seem more tenuous. If the tempi are slower, how did it pull in two minutes shorter?

Metastaseis for 60 musicians, but you only put five on the cover? That's cold. Also I hope whoever was playing woodblock got a raise, playing all those volume markings.

Luxembourg's woodblock is shrill.

Pithoprakta sounds like a dissection of a game of Plinko.

In the last minute of Pithoprakta, it doesn't sound too crazy, but imagine seeing a string orchestra perform it live and get that sound.

This recording of Diamorphoses sounds like it was taken from a 78, but I guess that's part of the charm? Definitely not something my local amateur wind band is going to put on.

I would love to see the score to Diamorphoses.

Xenakis scores never disappoint. Mostly it seems to be weird mathy stuff that I can't figure out, a circle with bar lines and diagonal lines between colored note heads or something. Graphical stuff rules, and makes me glad I quit the idea of playing professionally.

Remastered Concret PH: like sticking your head inside a rain stick while it's being upturned.

emil.y I don't know what to say. When I was in high school we had a pair of soft mallets where the stick parts were made of some kind of hideous metal that, when you clicked them together, sounded like biting your teeth on a soda can. That's what concret PH sounds like to me. I can't imagine being relaxed by this noise.

UGH I'm listening to it TWICE why am I DOING THIS

I wasn't sure Analogique A+B was going to have both the call and the response, but it seems to (on this Spotify recording). A little yelpy but otherwise good fun. Honestly the string part by itself I wouldn't be interested in, the weird imitation strings 50s synth bits are what keep me going.

A YouTube version of Analogique A+B: https://youtu.be/qSbdkTArkN8

There's a score for Diamorphoses?

Maybe that's not a safe assumption.

some kind of hideous metal that, when you clicked them together, sounded like biting your teeth on a soda can

There's definitely a bad reaction to the taste/feel of metal in your mouth I can imagine, but tbh this sounds like it would make a good noise to me.

Thanks for the youtube link, I'll catch up in a bit.

I'd never really given much thought to the Xenakis/noise continuum, mostly because my knowledge of the latter is severely lacking, but it does make perfect sense.

Diamorphoses is ofc a recorded musique concrète piece so I imagine if there's a 'score', it would be either some kind of pre-planning diagram or an after-the-fact listening score like the one for Ligeti's Artikulation? I don't think he used graphic notation for his instrumental works? Everything I've seen is v precisely traditionally notated.

But if you found a diagram or listening score, I'm totally interested to see it. (Or is there something else?)

On Xenakis vs noise, I haven't heard this album but it might be instructive: https://www.discogs.com/Iannis-Xenakis-Persepolis-Remixes-Edition-I/release/197685

There's a research paper on Diamorphoses here that I haven't read yet. There's a bunch of images, including a sort of graphical transcription. When I was in college I borrowed an early Stockhausen CD from the school library, a bunch of it was musique concrète and there were color coded images that represented the sounds somehow, so I guess I assumed all musique concrète started with a score. Admittedly that is kind of an absurd idea, now that I think about it.

(TBC I did not find that paper last night, I just found it now, and was shooting from the hip based on really limited knowledge of the style. Don't drink and Xenakis, kids.)

Tonight We're Gonna Xenakis You Tonight

Don't drink and Xenakis, kids.

Hard disagree:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/7f/73/5f/7f735fad75dfef6c639b1ff7b3460995.jpg

Ha, who is he talking to there?

Is he holding two whiskies?

No idea, alas.

xp I sure hope so!

I'm glad I lived to see this day.

The research paper (more like a presentation, almost PowerPoint in style) is really interesting. It's dry, but so far it's not too far over my head. Although the next section is called "Logarithmic perception of density," so I may be about to tap out. Also the author doesn't translate a few Xenakis quotes from an interview in French, although I could Google Translate those if I really felt the urge.

Also the "morphophone" looks like one of those record players that costs more than a car.

Re: that photo, I found the source. He's chatting with Roger Reynolds.

http://www.rogerreynolds.com/gallery/gallery_reynolds_xenakis.html

Ah ha

…who is 86 now! The JACK Quartet just released an album featuring two of his recent works, incidentally. I haven't heard them yet, but I certainly will very soon.

This week's selections:
Achorripsis, 21 insts, 1956–7
Duel, 2 small orchs, 1959
Syrmos, 12 vn, 3 vc, 3 db, 1959
Herma, pf, 1960–61
Orient-Occident, 2-track, 1960

Achorripsis: I like this one a lot. Comparatively sparse and a bit reminiscent to me of Webern in its pointillistic texture but with the man's signature shifts of statistical density (calculated with matrices of probabilities from what I gather, with instruments grouped based on timbre), allowing for a very clear linear form, which I always appreciate with him. As noted here, "transparent textures, string glissandi and pizzicati, dabs of colours that might have dazzled the serialists of the time if they'd been less dogmatic": https://www.iannis-xenakis.org/fxe/catalog/oeuvre_12.html

Syrmos: listening to the Ensemble Resonanz recording on Spotify and holy shit. The sounds he gets from these 18 strings are huge. Sweeping glissandi, pizzicati, and col legno sounds. So, reading a bit, I gather that he did make graphic scores for pieces before notating them conventionally? The excerpt of the (traditionally notated) score here is v cool and actually v precise in terms of the tuplet durations between stopped pitches that slide into each other: http://iannis-xenakis.org/fxe/catalog/oeuvre_16.html

Reviews from the 60s, in English and French: http://www.centre-iannis-xenakis.org/files/original/683f89c597901f78fc57014c95ad1fdc.pdf

Woah, missed this! Bookmarked!

Re novelty vs satisfactoryness of Metastaseis vs Pithoprakta: it may be relevant that the former kinda documents Xenakis's disillusionment with integral serialism; the work was made the same year that he wrote the article "La crise de musique sérielle", and the middle bit is, if I remember correctly, serially based. To make the story tidier than it probably is, you can almost hear the switch over into his own idiom, while in Pithoprakta, it's probably all him, so to speak.

The serial crisis in his view, again surely oversimplified and according to my memory (corrections etc very welcome!), was that the efforts to introduce as much variation and as little repetition as possible had had the paradoxical effect of making everything sound the same, a grey mass, to our perception. His solution then was to manipulate parameters directly at a macro level, ie the things that we do perceive differences between, and rather let those decisions percolate down to the detailed notes.

The premiere of Metastaseis in Germany was apparently a bit of a scandal, and it took some time before the local avant-garde came around to him. I can't find any references to this on the internet, but I seem to remember reading an old review where words like "Katzenmusik" and "Totenmusik" were used.

Duel: When I was looking for Xenakis recordings a few years back, this one and Stratégie were pretty much the only two mature works I couldn't find at all. (It seems there is a Stratégie on YouTube.) Of course, these are probably the two works of his that will sound most different from performance to performance: the mathematical basis is game theory, and the works are themselves games. Two conductors continuously signal to their separate orchestras which parts of the score should be played in which manner, and amass points based on a two-dimensional table of the respective options.

Given their modest length, I've always thought it would be fun to have a CD dedicated to each work, with (say) four conductors facing off in two semifinals, followed by a third-place match and a final, so that we could hear a number of realizations of each piece. :)

Does that mean you've actually done this whole trip before?? You could be our guide! Didn't know that there are serial elements in the middle of Metastaseis! I'll look into that.

Orient-Occident: this is actually the only one of this week's pieces I've heard before. It's pleasant, in the best sense of the term - I find the timbres and rhythmic passages quite pleasurable to listen to. I somehow didn't quite clock until now that it was originally made to accompany a film that was supposed to portray various cultures from prehistory to the time of Alexander the Great. Xenakis seems to have taken a rather abstract approach to this, without any obvious cliché allusions that I can recognize, so much that I couldn't tell you by listening what any of the referenced cultures are supposed to be, but it makes for a nice sense of panoramic variety.

Interesting about Duel and Stratégie btw. Didn't know he wrote anything that aleatoric.

Does that mean you've actually done this whole trip before??

Started, not completed. Important difference. :) (I think things fizzled out a bit around Persephassa, for no specific reason.)

Re serialism in Metastaseis: looking at Wikipedia, I may have misunderstood; according to that page, the serial techniques were used in the middle part of Anastenaria, the three-part work of which Metastaseis was originally the third and final (and nonserial)part. On the other hand, this abstract fits with how I understood it.

Herma is great. Maybe I'm just partial to Takahashi for her Feldman playing, but this piece manages to convey emotions without anything you could point out and hum the following day.

Also, how about an ILX fan cover of Duel? Does anyone have access to the score? We could be the defining recording of the piece.

Oh! I just noticed something in the score to Achorripsis: Every tenth measure is numbered, as is not uncommon at all, except that the number comes after the requisite number of measures have been finished, not before the numbered measure! That is, contrary to what I think is common practice, the number 10 in a square is placed on the boundary between measure 10 and 11, not between measure 9 and 10. I find this far more logical, it has always annoyed me that the first number usually turns up after nine measures, and the remaining ones every tenth measure thereafter.

Unless, of course, this is also a common alternative convention that I've never noticed.

However, he uses another illogical convention: Notes sounding an octave higher/lower than written are marked by the number 8, fine, but then notes two octaves higher/lower should logically be marked 15, not 16 as here. I mean, I get why 16 is used, but there is no sensible way of counting 16 up from the written note and end up on the sounded note.

All of these things (as well as two fifths not adding up to a tenth but a ninth, etc) I guess stem from the number zero not being an immediate concept to humans, and/or the tendency to think in numbers of objects rather than the space between them. It's not so long ago that it was customary to e.g. consider a Wednesday to come three days after Monday, which seems a convention as useful as any other until you try to add or subtract.

Um, that was a digression.

(So an octave ought really to be called a septave, the unison should be a zeroson, the two fourths C-G and G-D would add up to the eighth C-D, and all would work out. I'm not holding my breath.)

I was thinking of stuff like Varèse's Poème électronique, Stockhausen's Studie II, Boulez's Etudes I & II, Barraqué's Etude (I see a pattern here!), etc. Luc Ferrari, Pierre Schaeffer, Pierre Henry, Bernard Parmegiani and other noted musique concrète practitioners from that era are in a different category as far as I'm concerned because they devoted the quasi entirety of their efforts to the genre.

Diamorphoses is 1958, Stockhausen had moved on to Gesang der Junglinge by then, so Studie II is not a great comparison. Things were moving fast in those days!

Fair point.

Btw if someone wants to do a series of musique concrète polls at some point, I'd be on board.

All of these things (as well as two fifths not adding up to a tenth but a ninth, etc) I guess stem from the number zero not being an immediate concept to humans, and/or the tendency to think in numbers of objects rather than the space between them. It's not so long ago that it was customary to e.g. consider a Wednesday to come three days after Monday, which seems a convention as useful as any other until you try to add or subtract.
(So an octave ought really to be called a septave, the unison should be a zeroson, the two fourths C-G and G-D would add up to the eighth C-D, and all would work out. I'm not holding my breath.)

Disagree that this would be more logical. I've never heard of that in terms of counting days of the week but I don't think this is the same - ordinal numbers are not the same as cardinal numbers. Interval size isn't labelled based on counting equally sized units (unless you're doing it in terms of tones or semitones). A cello playing C + a violin playing C doesn't add up to zero - it adds up to harmonic unity. A major third is the distance from the first note to the third note of the major scale, not a total of three units of something; the distance between a major third and a perfect fourth is less than the distance between a major second and a major third. Labelling measure numbers after the bar instead of before is unconventional (at least today) but isn't necessarily illogical. Labelling two octaves as a 16th is just madness.

I mean, if we want to actually measure intervals mathematically, we just say that an octave is 12 semitones, which is far more precise than calling it a septave or something.