2021 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Nominees POLL

2. Belatedly make up for its history of snubbing whole categories of humans (POCs, women)

I also don’t agree w/ this claim... scroll through the list of inductees, starting at the beginning. Most were not white in the early years.

Aretha on first ballot, no?

The second, actually.

Scrolling through the entire Performers list of inductees, I would guess (very roughly) that only around half are white.

Maybe they should name it 'Popular Music Hall of Fame'.

I have opinions on this thing.

They absolutely should have. But in 1985, in a project started by Rolling Stone, I guess the name made sense. If it were launched today, I can't imagine them calling it that.

I would guess (very roughly) that only around half are white.

as of a year ago:

The percentage of total people of color in the hall has declined every year from an impressive high of 55.8% in 1989 to the current low of 32.7%.

https://www.billboard.com/articles/business/8543758/rock-roll-hall-fame-gender-racial-diversity-guest-opinion-evelyn-mcdonnell

They absolutely should have. But in 1985, in a project started by Rolling Stone, I guess the name made sense. If it were launched today, I can't imagine them calling it that.

When I started listening to pop music with a bit more investment (i.e. understanding it more, etc.) the idea of "rock 'n' roll" already seemed nebulous. Like every basic history on rock and every critical survey folded in genres like dance, hip-hop, electronic, etc. as if it was a continuation. In retrospect, I'd say rock was more or less defined as post-WWII pop music without it ever being articulated that way. The roots of the music pre-dating the '50s (country, blues, gospel/spirituals, folk) was acknowledged as "roots" without being lumped into rock. And pop music from the 50's on that seemed like a continuation of pre-WWII and WWII-era pop (Al Jolson, Bing Crosby, Frank Sinatra, Barbra Streisand, etc.) was a completely separate kind of pop (vocal pop? "mainstream" pop?). Again, I don't recall anyone articulating it that way, BUT it was more or less defined that way when you see how the history of rock music was presented. (For example, the '90s BBC/PBS series on the history of rock, which was supervised by critic/musicologist Robert Palmer.)

So that's how the "rock" HOF looked like to me without really thinking about it, and when dance or disco music or the first hip-hop groups got in as performers, it didn't seem musically inappropriate.

xp Thanks for that link. I wonder how recently (and abruptly) the tide may have shifted. Looks like 2017-2019 saw a lot of member-heavy white groups getting in (Journey, Yes, Pearl Jam, Bon Jovi, Dire Straits, the Cure, Moody Blues, Roxy Music...).

The percentage of total people of color in the hall has declined every year from an impressive high of 55.8% in 1989 to the current low of 32.7%.

It's following the same trajectory as rock 'n' roll, but much more slowly

Also, when I think about jazz's relationship to pop music, it seems to back up that narrative. Jazz was the popular music of the '30s during the swing era, before it was redefined by bebop. After that, there was clear separation as well as the recurring tension of certain types of jazz consciously trying to become "pop" or break into the pop market - it might be Stan Getz starting the bossa nova craze, or it may be Ella Fitzgerald's celebrated songbook series which fit the mold of mainstream vocal pop very well. It wasn't until the late '60s and '70s where you had the term "fusion." Gary Giddins talked about this when he was interviewed for Ken Burns's (seriously flawed) jazz documentary. You could define fusion as jazz and another genre, but go through every decade - there's jazz with Afro-Cuban music, jazz with rhythm & blues, etc, etc....what do you call that? He seemed dismissive of the definition for that reason (and perhaps it was fueled by his own distaste for fusion), but it's always made sense to me. Thinking of his response now, it's still edifying because it does point out how the mixing of some genres is viewed differently than others, and the why fits in with my previous post - what's defined as "fusion" is basically jazz mixing with other music that wasn't defined and hadn't matured until the post-WWII era.

In retrospect, I'd say rock was more or less defined as post-WWII pop music without it ever being articulated that way.

I think it has been articulated that way many times! (post-1955 anyway)

It's following the same trajectory as rock 'n' roll, but much more slowly

That's the impression I got. To be fair, they're not inducting who they should be chronologically - there are a lot of latecomers that should've been in decades ago - but if you look through Robert Christgau's annual Pazz & Jop essays going back to 1974, he does talk about that a lot. He intentionally tracks the development of pop music along racial (and even gender) lines year by year, in terms of who was listening to what and how that music was being recognized, either critically or through sales. With the HOF currently tracking the growth of hip-hop, some of those numbers should be reversing themselves, but if there is actual pushback against hip-hop (maybe not against the biggest names, but enough that important figures like LL Cool J, Boogie Down Productions, Eric B. & Rakim, etc. have been passed over, and hell even OutKast - how are they not nominated yet?) that could explain things.

At some point, people practically started m/l limiting the definition of "rock" to what would have been called "heavy metal" at one time. I don't think Iron Maiden are a more obvious descendent of Chuck Berry, Buddy Holly, and Frankie Lymon than Tina Turner or Chaka Khan are. xp

I think it has been articulated that way many times! (post-1955 anyway)

If I'm totally wrong, I'm fine with that, but I've never heard it articulated that broadly. Perhaps rightly, it's usually defined by articulating its roots (mostly country and blues). You can extrapolate that definition if you understand the history or timeline of that music, but I've never heard it defined in those broader terms. Again, maybe there's a good reason for that, but you can see how that also leads to questions of "is this rock?" with hip-hop, reggae, etc.

Oh, right, I see what you mean, I was probably speaking too broadly and reacting to narrower definitions. I don't think Kate Bush requires an especially radical stretch in the definition, though.

Just to clarify my own post above, when I reeled off that list--"Kate Bush belongs, etc."--I mixed people who are in the HOF and who aren't; I meant they all belong under the umbrella of whatever the hall defines as rock and roll, not that every person/band I mentioned should be inducted.

(John Coltrane would belong too, but for some reason they drew a line there--not sure if there are jazz musicians in the influences wing.)

I don’t think there are any country/c&w artists, either. Johnny Cash may the closest? — unless I’m forgetting someone.

Hank Williams and Jimmie Rodgers, the latter as an early influence, the former with apparently no designation.

Thanks – looks like they’re both in as Early Influences. (I was just looking at Performers)

John Coltrane would belong too, but for some reason they drew a line there--not sure if there are jazz musicians in the influences wing

miles davis was inducted, as a performer.

and country music hall of famers bob wills and bill monroe as early influences.

Bootsy on Fela:

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/bootsy-collins-interview-fela-kuti-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-1128823/

At some point, people practically started m/l limiting the definition of "rock" to what would have been called "heavy metal" at one time. I don't think Iron Maiden are a more obvious descendent of Chuck Berry, Buddy Holly, and Frankie Lymon than Tina Turner or Chaka Khan are.

Looks like 2017-2019 saw a lot of member-heavy white groups getting in (Journey, Yes, Pearl Jam, Bon Jovi, Dire Straits, the Cure, Moody Blues, Roxy Music...).

the obvious solution is to induct wu-tang (including cappadonna and killah priest!)

miles davis was inducted, as a performer

Miles much more involved in jazz-rock/electric fusion than Coltrane obv. It's not at all obvious to me why Coltrane would belong, although it would be nice to live in a world where the "rock audience" bought more hard bop, modal, and free jazz records.

xpost seigbran otm

motorhead's much closer to the ramones than any metal band

(xpost) For me, in the sense of what I wrote above: that Coltrane fits under that amorphous umbrella of music "embraced by what's generally thought of as the rock audience." Davis is obviously more directly connected to rock and roll, but when a university roommate got me onto Coltrane, it felt like a natural fit.

Coltrane was a big influence on Rock instrumentalists starting in the Psychedelic Era.

I mean, by sheer numbers, he clearly doesn't sell to all of the people who also listen to Journey and Bon Jovi (or the Rolling Stones), though, so how are we defining the rock audience? xp

C. Grisso's point is interesting. Bach also a major influence on a lot of rock artists from "Whiter Shade of Pale" through last year's Deep Purple album. A worthy candidate as well? I'm all for it!

Pachelbel's sequential bass progression has been used in enough rock songs that he probably deserves a nod.

the obvious solution is to induct wu-tang (including cappadonna and killah priest!)

I was thinking this last night! (Also, they legit should be in.)

Has Ravi Shankar ever been nominated?

so how are we defining the rock audience?

I don't have a cut-and-dried answer for that. I'm kind of approaching it subjectively, as a certain kind of listener (a cliché, I know) who came up through the '70s reading Bangs and Marcus and Christgau and others. My sense of what fits under that umbrella is heavily influenced by that era of rock critics, and Coltrane most definitely does. Ravi Shankar, too!

Which is, I should add, not entirely subjective, because I think my sense of that is aligned with the people (Wenner, I know, but it must have been others besides him) who came up with this thing in the first place.

Haha, inducting Queen and Rush was the ultimate travesty by that standard.

To me, one of the things that defines a genre is its borders. There would be something patronizing about Willie Nelson or Coltrane in this hall, like saying "they were so good at [their main genre], they were actually Rock!" I mean, does anyone want giants in their field like George Jones or Duke Ellington in the Rock Hall of Fame? How about Polka king Frankie Yankovic?

Also, what I was getting at with Kate Bush was not that she isn't/doesn't Rock, but that certain artists resist the kind of valourization of being put in any kind of "Hall". Like her music is so introverted or inward-facing that putting it in a glass box next to Def Leppard's torn jeans seems distasteful and disrespectful to me. There's a certain artistic fragility (or maybe, yes, preciousness) that comes out when some artist's music is blown up to be "more than music". Like I adore Talk Talk, but a big statue of Mark Hollis on a hill somewhere would feel highly inappropriate.

How about “Weird Al” Yankovic!

the rock n' roll hall of fame is a fundamentally flawed institution that can not be salvaged and i will never stop paying attention to it and complaining about it

Looks like 2017-2019 saw a lot of member-heavy white groups getting in (Journey, Yes, Pearl Jam, Bon Jovi, Dire Straits, the Cure, Moody Blues, Roxy Music...).

for whatever reason the Hall refused to induct the one black member of The Cure, with a definitiveness that almost made Smith refuse to take part - iirc they only skipped one white member from the 44 years of turnover

that's one of the most annoying parts of it, they get to decide who was "really" a member. like when bob welch got snubbed by fleetwood mac even though he was the leader of the band for almost as many albums as lindsay buckingham

^^That was Fleetwood's decision, because Welch was suing the band for back royalties at the time of induction.

OTOH, bands can lobby for inductees in their orbit. Jerry Garcia made sure Robert Hunter and Mountain Girl got in when The Dead were inducted.

There was another instance of that within the past five years that made news--someone who wanted to be included and wasn't; my memory is that I sided with the person left out--but I'm blanking out on who it was.

Re: country inductees, forgot, Bob Wills and his Texas Playboys are also in as early influences.

agh, nm, already posted

Jefferson Airplane's latter-day drummer Joey Covington complained about being excluded, his main defence being that he wrote and sang "Pretty as You Feel", one of their few charting singles.

Once a nominated band gets in, is the decision of which members to induct made by the RRHOF Board? Or are the members decided in advance, and listed on the ballot?

The one I'm thinking of is much more recent than the Airplane (and I think the person was more prominent than Covington). It's a hard thing to search, because you just get lists of the most egregious HOF snubs.