Instances where you can't separate the art from the artist. vs. instances where you can.

Tom Breihan writes a column for Stereogum analyzing every song that's ever hit #1 in the US, and today he's gotten to R. Kelly's "Bump N' Grind". The introduction is very good on his (and the music press's) complicity:

Fuck. OK. Here we go. Shit.

There is nothing inherently moral about pop music. To make a successful pop song, you have to tap into the sounds and ideas and feeling of a particular moment. You do not have to be a good person. There’s plenty of evidence to suggest that you might be more successful if you’re not a good person and that success will enable you to get away with some severely heinous shit. This column has covered murderers, rapists, thieves, domestic abusers, and other assorted monsters. The last entry in this column was about a group that included a former Nazi bonehead in its ranks. But even among this mob of shady characters, R. Kelly stands out.

Most of the time, I can write about these songs and about the lives of the people who made them, and those lives, no matter how sordid, won’t have a huge effect on my feelings about the songs. John Phillips’ daughter has said that her father drugged and raped her on the night before her wedding and that he went on to have an 11-year incestuous affair with her. I still think “Monday, Monday” is a good song. Peter Yarrow was convicted of molesting a 14-year-old girl and then later pardoned by Jimmy Carter. I still think “Leaving On A Jet Plane” is a good song. Those songs came out years before I was born, and it’s never been a huge mental leap to separate those songs from the people who made them. R. Kelly is a different story.

Time and doubt can shade and obscure the stories about pop stars being terrible people. That doesn’t happen with R. Kelly. Just last year, Kelly was finally convicted of crimes including kidnapping, racketeering, sex trafficking, and sexual exploitation of a child. We don’t have to use the word “alleged” when discussing Kelly’s offenses; at least some of those offenses are a matter of public record. Kelly’s crimes are part of a pattern that goes back to the years when he first became famous, and he’s lived like this in front of the entire public. It was right there for us.

Ever since I started writing this column a few years ago, I’ve been dreading the moment when I would have to engage with R. Kelly. Part of that is the sheer volume and severity of Kelly’s crimes, the many lives ruined. But part of it is also that I feel complicit in the whole R. Kelly story. As a writer, I’ve been responsible for propping up the whole R. Kelly operation, even after he first faced trial for child pornography. I’ve endorsed his music even when I should’ve known better. That’s on me.

I’ve gone back and read some of the stuff I wrote about Kelly in the past, and I can at least say that I used some level of scrutiny when talking about him and his crimes. It wasn’t enough, though. It’s not that I personally extended Kelly’s career and his ability to victimize women, but I sure didn’t do anything to stop it. When the Chicago writer Jim DeRogatis was criticizing Pitchfork, my former place of employment, for booking Kelly to headline its annual festival, I scoffed and rolled my eyes. I didn’t work at Pitchfork anymore when they booked Kelly, and I didn’t go to that festival, but I did think that DeRogatis was trying to spoil everyone’s fun. Today, DeRogatis is an acknowledged journalistic hero, and I feel like an asshole for not taking his reports seriously. With R. Kelly, I was part of the problem. So when I look at Kelly’s extremely long stretch of success and criminal exploitation, my own regret becomes a major factor. It’s something that I can’t escape.

Thanks for yr note, Daniel, and yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head.

That is, my interest is earnest and not ghastly or lurid.

I'd never question that.

And yup, big figure in that poetry world (you'll have seen the bebr0wed posts - that's where I read about his poetry and found out) & moving over into something more establishment, the Eliotic Anglican thing - one book launch 'in conversation with' the ex-Archbishop of Canterbury.

I can't see myself reading the one I have (Ν1ght Off1ce) again - at best I'd just picking cerebrally or forensically at it, perpetually conscious of his actions (and getting repelled or annoyed by the little courtroom in my head). And there's plenty to read that doesn't involve swimming in this shit - Daniel otm.

I think there's another argument to be made that you should read it: that by depriving yourself of this incredible poetry that you believe you would really like, you'd be allowing this guy's crimes to drag the world down further, even if only slightly. And it sounds like it's relevant enough to your own writing that it's very possible it could genuinely have a positive impact on your work, so there's a potential ripple effect there.

Daniel OTM too, though - if reading it is going to make you sick to your stomach, obviously you shouldn't feel obligated to subject yourself to that.

My current thought is to put it aside, then pick it up if it ever feels right. If that doesn't happen in the next few years, I'll probably put it in a free bin.

y'know what? fuck talib kweli. wackass motherfucker. i can't believe i ever sought out that cretin's records.

what now

this?

https://jezebel.com/talib-kweli-is-suing-jezebel-over-emotional-distress-fo-1849390843

why jezebel and not twitter (or pitchfork or anyone else who covered this bullshit)?

wtf is the "certain women" is it just (trans- or general) misogyny or is he pointing at someone(s) specific there?

is there some projected embarrassment or guilt in the "you hurt me by describing my behaviour" or is it just ego and entitlement all the way down? morally (or legally) it shouldn't really matter either way

those lyrics are terrible and even just the act of citing them to prove (?) is unintentionally revealing I think

I didn't realize he's still screaming about that shit.

What a petulant, misogynist child.

nothing "new" i was just listening to some old reflection eternal stuff and it's all kind of gross knowing what we now know about his attitude towards women. he was so phony on those records. imagine if "brown skin lady" or "love language" came out now - he'd be rightfully taken to task for being a hypocrite.

why jezebel

because it's the one that has a feminine name and he's so blinded by x chromosome hatred tunnel vision that it was his only option.

(okay, that's speculation but doesn't seem like much of a stretch by now)

anyway.

He like all butthurt Maras weaponized his fanbase against the article writer and the lady on Twitter that he kept harassing on multiple platforms

Just want to point out that over the past few months we can add Normani and now Chloe Bailey into the list of "promising new r&b talents who will release singles with Chris Brown features" alongside Tinashe, Sevyn Streeter and K.Michelle. People say that he's been #cancelled, but he sold out a Glasgow venue that holds fourteen thousand people, and he's still being used in an attempt to rescue the flailing careers of less-successful upcoming artists. He might not be at Drake/Beyonce megastar levels like he could have potentially rose to, but he's nowhere near as disregarded as you would hope for him to be.

He just had a Grammy nomination for Best R&B Album, as well

(And apparently had a bad initial reaction to losing)

fuck Chris Brown with a weedwhacker

I always find it "amazing" when I run into people who think the Rihanna beating was his only transgression *and* that he has been trying to atone for this for years (nope). Overheard a heated conversation about him not long ago where a woman was (rightfully) talking about how ridiculous it is that he still has a career, and the man across from her, a fan, said "I think we have to ask ourselves at one point how long we're willing to shun someone for one act", and the woman about spit her drink out and said "ONE ACT?", and began listing just about every infraction he had committed, the rape accusations, the destroying of the dressing room, etc, and the guy literally appeared to have no knowledge of it.

I don't know HOW that's possible but.

tbh this one act and his lack of contrition for it was enough for me by itself anyway

I hope that conversation ended with everyone at the bar uppercutting that man

Or shunning him.

Liberal thread

Shut the fuck up

well that's us told

Liberal thread

― CerebralCaustic, Saturday, February 18, 2023 5:52 AM

OP here. am very relieved you made this clear because i was starting to worry folks might think i was becoming a fascist. PHEW — glad that's sorted!

altrenately—

Liberal thread

― CerebralCaustic, Saturday, February 18, 2023 5:52 AM

found chris brown's sock ya'll

"altrenately" is an alternate spelling kind of like color vs colour y'know.

we liberals are poor typists =(

xpost to beato/youtubers you dig:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnivNajzZ1E
fd signifier - "when you can't separate the art from the artist" (video essay, 2024)

(fd doesn't exclusively do music topics, but is excruciatingly otm when he does)

#onethread

sry that opening phrase should have been a link to here.

Knowing nothing about this until yesterday, can someone summarise the evidence for Steve Albini’s involvement in with child abuse imagery? Lots of references to it on Twitter today but reluctant to click on links or delve into it myself

aiui, he wrote some really gross things in an old tour diary referencing European p0rn that he was looking at that allegedly had such imagery.

all i know is i clicked on a link for some interview on the albini r.i.p. thread and when i got to "my friend peter sotos..." i bailed. but whatever. i don't know about any abuse imagery though. he did hang out with whitehouse, right? and lots of japanoise people probably. they like that kind of stuff. on CD covers anyway.

Produced Whitehouse I believe?

did feel like he was making a very conscious effort to rehab his image toward the end there especially after the tyler the creator thing. probably didn't want to have *legendary asshole, racist, misogynist, and nirvana producer dead in electrical mishap* at the top of his obit. who would? better to have *ageing white male working on issues before electrical fire* at the top. but man that picture at the top of the NYT obit was not flattering. even iconoclastic dickheads don't deserve that kind of treatment.

there's *a lot* that could be said honestly but it feels too soon at least for me

i read the MEL magazine story (at https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/steve-albini-counsel-culture-interview ). it's interesting to hear him talk about it. i was an internet edgelord when i was younger myself. like albini, i'm white, but unlike him, i'm not a cisgender man. i _acted_ like one when i was younger, though. the thing was, the "edgelord" shit at the time was fucking weaksauce. i was reading about donna lee parsons, about how she lived, and that was way more fucking punk than anything albini ever did, anything i ever did when i was younger. a lot of that shit i didn't talk about even at the time, because i wasn't proud of it. it was fucked up, and i did it because i was fucked up. that doesn't excuse it. it's just that i'm not proud of it, is all. whereas the "edgelord" shit i've done since transitioning, the kind of shit they used to put in "faces of death" videos, that is stuff i'm proud of. i think getting my dick cut off was pretty fucking hardcore. just because i was doing it to, like, make my life better, just because my deciding to do so was a _good, healthy decision_, that doesn't make it not hardcore. other people might disagree and hey they got the right to believe what they believe.

what stuck out to me was this thing albini said in his idk "accountability" twitter thread:

A lot of things I said and did from an ignorant position of comfort and privilege are clearly awful and I regret them. It's nobody's obligation to overlook that, and I do feel an obligation to redeem myself…

see, i don't feel that way, i don't feel like he needs "redeeming". he's dead and people get to judge him however they want. guy who was friends with a pedo creep, guy who spent every christmas helping out families who couldn't give their kids anything for christmas. guy who was there to help create tons of great music and didn't claim more credit or reward than he thought was fair, guy who shat on most of the entire history of black music. one doesn't redeem or negative the other, they're just things that happened.

idk, before i transitioned, and for a while after i transitioned, it really bothered me that when i was gone, there might be people in this world, good people, who hated me and thought i was awful forever. i don't feel that way now. i don't expect to be widely remembered when i'm gone, but if there are people i leave behind who will never forgive me for what i've done, i think that's as much part of my legacy as people i leave behind who love me dearly and will miss me. hell, there'll probably be people who belong to both groups at once. i didn't know albini. i don't think anything can "redeem" some of the shit he said and did. i wouldn't forgive him for it even if it was my place, which i don't think it is. i don't hate him. i just think certain things he did are irredeemable.

-

anyway it does have me reflecting on my own edgelord shit. i don't think it was, like, _qualitatively_ different from a lot of the edgelord shit albini did. i did act like an entitled cis white male asshole a lot of the time. it's hard for me to own up to that because i worried for a while that it meant that i was "really" a cis white male asshole, that someone who wasn't Really A Man wouldn't act like that. that's not what i believe now. patriarchy isn't about individuals, men, women, cis, trans, whatever. it's systemic. i wasn't a man when i did that shit. i was acting like a man. it doesn't matter that i know now that i was never really a man. it doesn't matter that back then, most everyone bought into the act, including me. i hold myself accountable for that behavior to the same extent, in the same way, that i'd hold a cis white man responsible. i don't _regret_ them necessarily because a lot of that shit was... you know, i didn't have all the choice i'd like to have had, in some things. i don't think i need to be "redeemed" for that shit either. i did shit, and other people got the right to make their own judgements about me based on the shit i did.

i guess maybe that's sort of perpendicular to the idea of "separating the artist from the art". not really sure though.

Found this summary

https://medium.com/@MoonMetropolis/now-that-steve-albini-is-dead-lets-reflect-on-his-admitted-love-and-promotion-of-child-fadf5072288e

Found this summary

written by...

(not that it changes anything about the content of the article)

as a good gen Xer i did have to know a little about serial killers. and i did always like horror movies. and, god help me, i did buy copies of Answer Me! magazine back in the 90s. they were definitely gross. and even had Sotos excerpts. i mostly liked it for Debbie Goad. i thought she was a genuinely funny writer. i saw some issues years later and, yeah, they were bad. but just as bad were the copies of the national lampoon that i looked at in the 21st century. holy shit, they sold those in every convenience store in the country. they are just filled with the most toxic, noxious shit imaginable. i basically bought them for the cartoons. i loved gahan wilson. but, man, i was like 11 years old when i was reading them! my parents should have been thrown in jail. they were so racist. and that's the kind of stuff that albini grew up with too. i always hated the sex torture aspect of some noise/industrial. i liked bleak but why did bleak have to be so hateful? i mean i'm a death metal fan, so, i guess i do ignore a lot of stuff but with metal it seems more cartoon-y. like a horror movie. there is a school shooter vibe to some of that 80s black & white noise music. proto-incel. that whole quasi-nazi vibe. completely inhospitable to people of color. women. just gross. and some people never grow out of it. they just go deeper into it. albini's rants have that quality sometimes. the smart nerd in the back of the class drawing murder porn in his notebook. reading about hitler. i'll give him the benefit of the doubt. he saw how fucked up it all was. i dunno. he WAS a smart guy. ride or die for peter sotos though...ugh.

yeesh, now THAT is a wikipedia page. holy shit. and that picture...gah, i'm getting out of here.

One thing Albini seemed very much in favor of is seeing art as entirely and most paramount an expressive act of the artist, even to the exclusion of the actual sounds or artifacts of it, so in a way it is a tribute of sorts to embrace or dismiss his output on that basis.

as a good gen Xer i did have to know a little about serial killers. and i did always like horror movies. and, god help me, i did buy copies of Answer Me! magazine back in the 90s. they were definitely gross. and even had Sotos excerpts. i mostly liked it for Debbie Goad. i thought she was a genuinely funny writer. i saw some issues years later and, yeah, they were bad.

― scott seward

i mean i was the same way, i had copies of "answer me!", like to me there wasn't a difference between that and neil gaiman's "sandman", it was all like, "oh this is cool underground stuff", and today it's easy to see the difference, but it was, you know. _alternative_, right? it didn't matter if it was good or bad, it was just different, you know, fuck society, fuck all of these norms, all of these rules, they were all bullshit. that was how it was for me back then. that's not to say, again, that i'm not _accountable_ for the edgelord bullshit. it's just a lot more obvious to me in retrospect. and it's not like i was wrong about the norms back then being bullshit. they were absolutely bullshit, and i'm still appalled that anybody took that shit seriously.

Epatering la bourgeoisie seems to most often be a dead end that leads to monstrous trash (usually not as horrible as that Sotos zine) and Albini's review + his statement on the porn he found (I also find true crime/serial killer media that isn't trading purely on shock value distasteful tbh). Part of the growing older and wiser is that he (and similarly, Henry Rollins - so many chunks of Get In The Van are just wtf) appeared to have realized it to some extent.

Epatering la bourgeoisie seems to most often be a dead end that leads to monstrous trash (usually not as horrible as that Sotos zine)

― papal hotwife (milo z)

mmm, i'd call it more a dramatic crossroads

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/002/046/344/598.jpg

I didn't know about the CP thing I was just going on the general edgelord racism, misogyny etc as reflected in 2/3 of his band names but in light of that I withdraw my too soon

hopefully his late in life conversion wasn't totally cynical but it doesn't erase any of that shit

tbh I have felt weird in certain online trans spaces where the assumption seems to be "didn't we all have an alt-right phase?" since I probably fought a lot of those people during my own edgelord phase (which I thought was more justified because it was for social justice but a lot of the tactics were the same) and I still find it hard to forgive people who were involved in gamergate or whatever

I don't want to deny anyone's capacity to change but I also don't want to deny the harm that was done before and in albini's case it was substantial and has had lasting effects

fwiw i never had an alt-right phase but i had a liberal phase, which i'm even more ashamed of lol

well not really _ashamed_, to me it's like, i don't know anybody who gets through unscathed. you get the trauma of transition or you get the trauma of repressing, either way, one winds up taking damage

nothing i think i can really do but accept responsibility for the consequences of my words and actions, whatever those consequences are

I regret spending the 90s in love with Clintonian centrism

but did it ruin your appreciation for his sax chops?

like... ok i'm sorry it took me this long to remember this, the serial killer thing wasn't just random edgelording in my case. when i looked for people like me in movies, what i saw was, like, dressed to kill and sleepaway camp and the silence of the lambs. it seemed more likely to me that i was a serial killer than that i was, like, a woman. i guess there are a lot of people who saw those movies and still kind of believe that about me, which is kinda frustrating given that i'm not actually a serial killer, but at the same time i can't say i have no idea where that belief came from.

hollywood was really like if we show serial killers as the enforcers of cisheteropatriarchal white supremacy that they are it might make us look bad for doing the same kind of thing through media so let's keep doing the same thing by putting them in a dress instead

:(

1970s pop culture totally tried to make me terrified of men dressed as women or men being women or trans people in general. they were either a murderer or it was horrible comedy where the male comic was basically drooling and leering in the worst way possible. i'm looking at you, benny hill! i blame milton berle. flip wilson was okay. the kids in the hall probably did it best later. and i did find monty python funny and somehow not intimidating/scary because they often played older women who had really funny voices. but i blame these depictions for my conflicted feelings about drag in general when i was young. i TOTALLY blame them for that. when i was younger i would definitely be turned off by drag because of those residual memories. i basically had to meet and know drag performers and cross-dressers and live with gay men when i was young in philly to realize how brainwashed i had been by fucking starsky & hutch or whatever.
remember putting on ace ventura pet detective for one of my kids thinking funny jim carrey what could go wrong! either i had never seen it or blocked it out of memory but holy fucking shit what a transphobic nightmare! funny animal movie! hahaha!....fucking hell...