RAdiohead

it’s also a challenge to the precious institutions and traditions they correctly fear will be eroded once people figure out the whole thing is a set up to make rich conservative men richer and more entrenched in power

― flamenco drop (BradNelson), Thursday, April 28, 2022 9:35 AM

Reminder that there are people who believe Black folks don't deserve true equality because they will "take revenge" once they've got it. This is just another bullshit excuse to justify being a prick.

Which Johnny Greenwood is. Fuck you Johnny. Your band stole all of its good ideas and your film scores are boring pieces of shite that no one would care about if you hadn't played guitar on "Creep." You're not even the ugliest member of your band of uglies. Fucking prick.

I regret buying and listening to anything by Radiohead.

and yeah frogbs otm with the debt forgiveness analogy, you will see a lot of cis women who believe the suffering they’ve endured as part of their gender is an essential condition of that gender and their identity and how dare anyone claim to be a woman without going through that same suffering

of course it’s a selfish position bc it willfully ignores all the suffering trans women do go through

― flamenco drop (BradNelson), Thursday, April 28, 2022 5:38 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

this is also why a lot of otherwise reasonable ppl fall for the transphobic argument that trans women are "socialized male" and thus experience "male privilege"

― flamenco drop (BradNelson), Thursday, April 28, 2022 5:43 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

not to put too much thought into transphobia which is honestly pretty baffling to me but it seems like people, and a lot of otherwise liberal people, are religiously attached to the biological essentialism of identity, as if they couldn't function without it. gender is like one of the most malleable traits on our planet and other species literally make it up all the time. but somehow it threatens family values or whatever to think otherwise, which, i mean, good, fuck family values lol.

i accidentally went down the Suzanne Moore rabbit hole as a result of all of this and I want to throw up now

the reason so many leftists wind up uncritically circulating among the TERF crowd is that lots of leftists are also bad people, plain and simple.

almost as if we should give up the idea that having similar political beliefs makes one immune to being a useless sack of shit.

wasn't meaning that to sound snarky at anybody here, because this forum realizes that better than the outside world.

It's true tho.

Very true. Everyone otm.

Sorry for my outburst, but ffs when did basic human rights become conditional?

You guys are all insane

People adopt "TERF" ideologies because they're basically people, like my mom, who think that "having lived as male means they have male privilege", because they're 70 and they grew up in a period when women's rights were (as now) under attack, and continue to have a Dworkin-esque hangover penisphobia hangover, which is annoying, because I have a penis, but I'm not a man, and it's totally fine, and we talk and they learn but I understand that they (my mom, that is) have lived through decades of misogyny and it's hard for them to accept anti-essentialism when they've been fighting against The Man for so long

I literally don't give a shit about Jonny Greenwood except for the fact that he's a great film composer who I look up to and even if he were to come out as a child-shitter (that is, a person who actively seeks to shit on children) I probably would still appreciate his contributions to the world of film scoring, because...

...anybody who seeks to impose moral superiority over somebody who is clearly gifted at their craft is expressing nothing but a frustration at their own perceived lack of agency instead of anything meaningful or worthwhile

The actual transphobes are elsewhere

The enemy is elsewhere

Jonny Greenwood does not shit on children but if he did his soundtracks would still be worth our attention

It sucks he liked that shitty tweet but I find it far weirder that people like KNOW WHO HIS WIFE IS and PAY ATTENTION TO THE TWEETS SHE LIKES than anything fucking else, like Radiohead fans, get the fuck out of my kitchen, are you music listeners or fucking creepy stalkers

And enjoy your Radiohead (if you enjoyed it to begin with)

listen, i'm not directly communicating with anyone who believes transphobic things here so like... just let me fucking talk about it as i experience it fgti

i'm certainly not talking about your mom

god now i wish i hadn't ever posted anything about this

i'm glad you did fwiw

do i agree that i shouldn't even know this information about johnny greenwood? i certainly do, i said as much

(I think most posters here aren't equating those who actively put a target on trans individuals' backs with deliberately-coded dog whistles or blatant hate speech a la Suzanne Moore and examples like fgti's mother as being one and the same - one often being the consequence of the other, in fact).

and yes, i actually find it *more* frustrating when people who should nominally be on my side adopt terf ideologies, i know they're not the real enemy

also just like try not to walk into a conversation with "you guys are all insane"

Brad, you deserve your space in here so keep posting away, if you want/need to.

xpost otm

I’ll be more specific

And I take back “you’re all insane”

If we are scanning the “likes” of the wives of semi-famous composers to try and form our own opinions of whether or not we should engage with the product of the composer’s primary product then we have lost our way

I am technically insane, so that would be like me starting a post with

You guys are all reading this on a laptop.

Maybe true, maybe not. Don't know.

What I do know is that Brad (and everyone else) is allowed to vent here.

(Which is why my earlier post is a bit messy. Apologies. What if I told you that this is an issue that I'm passionate about?)

it's not just her likes, her entire account is far-right antivax shit, it's very blatant. but i agree that his wife's shitty views don't matter at all - if greenwood started even hinting at antivax stuff too then it'd be "oh that's where he got it from" but he hasn't. no one in here is even talking about his wife!

him likely having some transphobic sympathies is certainly concerning and disappointing though. it's not at the level where i'm never going to listen to radiohead again but i don't think it's wrong to be very wary. if he were to become publicly deranged about trans people in the way that say, the drummer from teenage fanclub has, then that would certainly cross that line though.

would you still be defending it as not worth caring about if he'd liked a few blatantly racist or homophobic tweets & followed popular racist/homophobic writers? no one's even saying they're never listening to radiohead/his scores again, just expressing disappointment

I don't get the centrist TERF stuff in the UK. Does it help grow the left at all?

well centrists are opposed to the left! it can be a problem on the left and does seem to be more of one in the uk than elsewhere, but that's getting a bit away from the topic.

no one's even saying they're never listening to radiohead/his scores again, just expressing disappointment

I did. I was throwing a fit.

But I likely won't be listening to anything by choice for a long time.

I mean I’m glad he’s not actively posting transphobic tweets himself. It’s still not the alignment I expected from him.

He’s usually very private. I hope he learned a lesson about how many fans can be potentially hurt by this. All of Radiohead members seem very sensitive folks and I wont stop enjoying their music over this.

Hope he learns something over this bullshit and doesn’t double down on this circus.

xp oh i missed that but whatever, i don't have a problem with that, people can draw the line where they want

brief history of uk "feminist"-transphobia is that unlike in the rest of the world where the biological essentialist end of radical feminism was always a fairly niche position, in the uk it caught on a little later and some of its adherents (germaine greer, julie bindel, suzanne moore, etc.) ended up with significant positions in the media. this helped to mainstream its basic positions in a way that didn't happen elsewhere, laying the ground for the transphobic backlash of the last decade in the uk from many people who consider themselves socially progressive. of course, if you dig into it you can find that those writers are deeply reactionary on all sorts of other issues, and that their feminism is significantly just about defending their existing privileges as upper-middle class white women. the uk also never had much of a third wave of feminism to really grapple with that type of upper-middle class white reactionary feminism in the way that the us did.

He liked a vile tweet then blamed fat thumb, which may or may not be true. He's been a public(ish) figure for decades, has he actually said anything transphobic? I mean he may well be a transphobe, but the evidence is a bit thin to be throwing away your Radiohead records just yet.

he hasn't said anything, just liked a few tweets & is following the whole set of uk transphobic columnists but not like, any activists beyond that

which is why i'm disappointed and wary but nothing more yet

thanks for that history ufo

No one here is scanning Likes (and maybe no one did at all... isn't "X person you followed liked this tweet" part of the Twitter timeline?). This started because given the chance to turn what he claims is a misunderstanding into anything the least bit positive, he chose to say...pff i don't know what all this is about, i just happen to read a bunch of people who think like this. Ridiculous.

yeah the default setting on twitter makes likes show up on the timeline sometimes, i think that's usually how people notice this stuff and only then do they start digging to see if it's indicative of anything more

...anybody who seeks to impose moral superiority over somebody who is clearly gifted at their craft is expressing nothing but a frustration at their own perceived lack of agency instead of anything meaningful or worthwhile

yikes

that is one of the wildest things I've read on ilx in a while--do you actually believe that?

and yes I agree that digging up JG's wife's anti-vax views to shit on JG is feeble

realize now that the thread bump was something that came between JG's Big Like and him addressing it so i shouldn't have said the latter is why we're talking about this here. It's just why i bothered to.

JG was even posting pro-vaccine news on his twitter iirc and is vaccinated himself.

Pinning anything he thinks or does on his wife is problematic for so many reasons. A man of his cultural importance and international fame has been surrounded by people with many opposing thoughts through the years. are we going to start pushing people against the wall for other people they interact with?

Can any of you even prove he's interacted with his wife?!

marriages, like retweets, should not be viewed as endorsements. Moka is otm. There are frothing fans out there that have it out for his wife and are really suspicious of jonny because of her, and fuck that. It's his own tweet that got me.

and yeah frogbs otm with the debt forgiveness analogy, you will see a lot of cis women who believe the suffering they’ve endured as part of their gender is an essential condition of that gender and their identity and how dare anyone claim to be a woman without going through that same suffering

― flamenco drop (BradNelson), Thursday, April 28, 2022 9:38 AM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

i will say i was prob talking shit here and fgti's assessment that it's more of a dworkin-era hangover of hating penises bc so many men with them wanted to control their reproductive rights, but even then idk, it's not as if the struggles of feminism and the struggles of trans women are not so intimately interwoven as to be the same thing, it just requires so little of a leap to want to protect other women from the same fucking demons!!!

i admit that i am venting my potentially off base and ahistorical feelings about left-leaning people adopting transphobic positions bc i am overemotional during and chronically avoidant of any kind of conflict

wow i sure forgot to put all of the words in that post that were supposed to be there. anyway i'm sorry for getting heated, i felt bad

Oh god no I feel bad for my own overreaction! I’m sorry. I wasn’t even really reacting to anyone here, it was off-base and bad and I’m sorry.

you can react that way to me. i don't care either way because the bottom line is that i have no time for anyone who is bigoted in any capacity and/or associates with a group that has anti-human agendas.

this post may come across angry or aggressive. i assure you, it is the exact opposite of both of those things.

lol i'm like "why is anybody still talking about radiohead in 2022"

oh because jonny greenwood terfed

hey thom go make jonny listen to "a reminder", or better yet don't, eventually you learn one way or the other, songs like that don't matter. we change. for the better or for the worse we change

my feeling is that there is a pipeline and that once you're on the pipeline far enough to be liking tweets, you don't leave. there aren't "ex-terfs" or de-terfers.

my feeling also is that it is social, not just being a terf but a lot of things. you're influenced by who you spend time with. there are reasons there are so many trans folks in the pac nw, and it's not just because we're all fleeing texas.

i could be wrong but i feel like j. greenwood probably spends a lot of time with his wife.

the uk became terf island because... well, because mumsnet, in a lot of ways. you get one person in the right place and it makes a big difference. mumsnet terf-pilled a generation. i feel bad for my friends in the uk. they got it bad. real bad. well, you know. all any of us can do is survive.

hey thom play Jonny Rabbit in Your Headlights.. fat bloody fingers are sucking your soul away

the interesting thing about something like this is that i totally see where people are coming from, how it feeds into folks' anxieties. anybody... i mean, i'll just say it's not a cis thing, because i was the same way before i transitioned

there's this desire to give someone the benefit of the doubt, partly influenced by how much the person in question likes "popcorn superhet receiver" or whatever ("superhet" lol) but partly by how easily someone can see themselves accidentally doing what jonny did

and it seems really easy, it seems like a really easy mistake for someone to make. you look at it and you're like "jeez it doesn't seem that bad to me, i could've done that, if not now than in the fairly recent past"

except that people don't ever seem to do it by accident. people make mistakes, you let go, you move on, but this only ever seems to happen as part of a pattern of behavior, and that pattern of behavior is, weirdly enough, it's part of the terf coming out process

it's like getting clocked for the first time, you know it's gonna happen, it feels shitty, but it doesn't actually change who you are or what you believe. at best you scurry back into the closet.

the difference is that terfs, gencrits, w/e, they're basing their identity around their beliefs about people like me, beliefs which are fundamentally based in ignorance (like i say, it's social; if jonny spent any significant amount of time around trans people he'd see how fucking ridiculous the things gencrits say are), and i'm basing my identity around, uh, myself.

gencrits _could_ change their beliefs about trans people, in theory, because pretty much all of us _have_ changed our beliefs about trans people. the stuff gencrits believe is stuff that was universally accepted, as in i myself accepted it, not too long ago. they just don't see any reason they should do that work.

This is incredibly otm and I’m glad to see you on here again :)

I want to add a little re UK context: it is mumsnet but especially a lot of the “progressive” female commentators you see martyring themselves into terfdom are people used to being fêted for their work and progressive opinions but like a lot of old people, they’ve found themselves out of step and they don’t like it. How dare you talk back to them, don’t you know they were a pioneer two or three decades ago?

And yes, for “mistakes” you don’t often see people going the other way.

my feeling is that there is a pipeline and that once you're on the pipeline far enough to be liking tweets, you don't leave. there aren't "ex-terfs" or de-terfers.
― Kate (rushomancy), Sunday, May 1, 2022 12:58 AM

i had some overly excited, expletive filled WHOOOO! type comment.

but instead i'll just leave that quote there and say i'm really glad to see you back around these parts.

I want to add a little re UK context: it is mumsnet but especially a lot of the “progressive” female commentators you see martyring themselves into terfdom are people used to being fêted for their work and progressive opinions but like a lot of old people, they’ve found themselves out of step and they don’t like it. How dare you talk back to them, don’t you know they were a pioneer two or three decades ago?

yeah the us transphobes are kinda like that too, my gut on this is that it's more correlative than causative. i feel like people who aren't out of touch with what's going on are more likely to actually know a trans person or two, and hell, nobody _enjoys_ being called on their bullshit.

it's kinda hard to explain what it's actually _like_ when someone whose art i admire starts openly supporting a political movement dedicated to the eradication of people like me. like for instance, in the Before Time when Christian Vander of Magma came out as a Nazi, i felt really hurt and betrayed on a personal level. in some ways it's less personal since i've come out? i don't _individualize_ it as much.

there are a lot of people in the world who would prefer it very much if i didn't exist. that's kind of weird to me, it's not something i really had to deal with before, but it's also a fact of life. and anybody at any time could turn out to be one of those people, i kinda gotta be mentally prepared for that. there's no sense of surprise and betrayal because literally anybody could turn out to be a transphobe. there's no "i thought you were better than that", "i trusted you", anything like that.

when people talk sometimes about separating the artist from the art, that was challenging to me, because i'm not a fan of _art_, i'm a fan of _artists_. in some sense greenwood and i are equals now - i had a lot of strong emotions about him despite not really knowing him as a person, and he apparently has, now, strong feelings about me despite being ignorant of, well, apparently all trans people.

the idea of being a _fan_ of someone who held those beliefs, it makes me think of that poor trans lady back in the day who came up to germaine greer and told her how much she appreciated what greer had done for women like her.

greer seems to have not accepted the compliment gracefully. i read an excerpt from one of her later books where she engages in a bit of l'esprit d'escalier. i mean damn mad respect for greer as a writer, because that is some top-notch invective. today's transphobes can at best manage to be a pale imitation of the sheer vitriol greer spat out at people like me.

and you know what, that shit works, right? i read the passage some decades after it was written and boy, it sure made me hate myself. all of the worst things i ever suspected or thought about myself, she just put all of that out there in print.

i mean can i say i'm a "fan" of her writing after seeing one particular use to which she put her tremendous literary talent? the whole transition thing, the hardest and most important thing i had to do was to value _myself_ more than i value what other people think or say about me. being a fan of someone who thinks poorly of me requires me to hate myself. and knowing what someone like that _does_ think of people like me, well, valuing myself requires that i not engage too closely with their work, whatever its merits might be, because to do that is dangerous to my continued health and well-being.

but there's no personal feeling in there at all. i could no more hate jonny greenwood than i could hate strychnine. it's just different when it's _you_ someone is hurting.

some of the most thought provoking shit I have read in a long time, thank you Kate

wow, what a post [blinking, applause]
thank you for taking the time to think/write that

Very interesting pov Kate. Glad to see you around here and give your insight into this sort of thing.

Just want to note that Johnny’s wife is anti-vax but afaik she isn’t a transphobe or is liking or retweeting transphobic tweets.

🤮

that was to moka lol. fantastic post kate.

:/ what did i do wrong now?

"Thin Thing" is the first song by The Smile that really and truly knocked me for a loop.