mods invite the late owsley (aka bear) to this website
― mark s, Monday, 9 May 2022 08:52 (two years ago) link
the kind of pedantry our site could really use
― Critique of the Goth Programme (Neil S), Monday, 9 May 2022 08:53 (two years ago) link
Well, yeah.
― Don't Renege On (Our Dub) (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 9 May 2022 10:01 (two years ago) link
I am always interested in this thread’s question because I often want to know what prevents people from getting into the Dead, particularly if it seems like the sort of thing they’d be into.For me, I love jamming out, but the minute that any vocals happen, I want to turn the music off. None of these guys could sing, and so when one of em starts mewling acidically after 15 minutes of lovely psychedelic improvisation, my thoughts immediately turn to a different question. How could a band ruin so much of their own material simply by singing? It’s mind-boggling to me.
― we need outrage! we need dicks!! (the table is the table), Monday, 9 May 2022 10:50 (two years ago) link
For me the endless twinkling improv bits (cf. mark s) are the main draw. Maybe the often insufferable vocals and shabby playing kind of put the twinkly bits into even sharper relief. Merely twinkling would result in less impact, so the pain/pleasure dialectic is key. (Granted, I mostly listen to Europe '72 full concerts, so don't know if this explanation would apply to other eras.)
― jvc, Monday, 9 May 2022 11:23 (two years ago) link
Jerry’s voice before it went to shit had a lovely timbre imho
― calstars, Monday, 9 May 2022 11:26 (two years ago) link
I agree about the Jerry timbre! Off-key singing and mistiming though...
― jvc, Monday, 9 May 2022 11:37 (two years ago) link
The biggest surprise of the recent-ish documentary was the clip of them rehearsing vocal harmonies. Jerry ran Bob and Phil through one line several times, and I thought, “They rehearsed their vocals?!” — all live evidence being to the contrary.You could put the weakness of the vocals down to not being able to properly hear themselves on stage, but things didn’t improve with their Wall Of Sound PA which supposedly allowed them to hear themselves much more clearly. But they knew their singing wasn’t the greatest; almost all the vocals on Europe ‘72 were overdubbed in the studio. For me, Pigpen’s utterly hapless attempts at “Hard To Handle” and “Hey Jude” are the nadir of Dead vocals, which is saying something.
― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Monday, 9 May 2022 13:05 (two years ago) link
iirc Crosby claims to have helped the Dead with their three-part harmonies at one point ... but you can only do so much.
It's definitely part of Dead lore that whatever film, CD, song, bootleg etc of theirs is under discussion, it's never the right 'intro' for non-believers. But that really is true of the Grateful Dead Movie imho
― Ward Fowler, Monday, 9 May 2022 13:58 (two years ago) link
I thought that was Phish lore!
― Bob Dylan's iconic Ray Ban sunglasses (morrisp), Monday, 9 May 2022 14:02 (two years ago) link
tbf as an outsider, the grateful dead movie is a better intro than the three or four canonic LPs I have a long try a couple of years ago upthread
it's not good as a movie (jampacked with fvck-awful animation and vox pops with their more annoying fans) but it points you towards the endless twinkling improv bits™️ rather than away from them -- i definitely now get it more than i did
― mark s, Monday, 9 May 2022 14:10 (two years ago) link
I quoted this in some other dead thread but mention of the grateful dead movie caused me to search for it - I've used "get my space together" for like 30 years now because of this guy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZPJ_VN3Iis
― joygoat, Monday, 9 May 2022 14:20 (two years ago) link
This is true, but also his later voice added some levity to performances of, say, "Black Muddy River" and "Wharf Rat" after it went to shit.
― a superficial sheeb of intelligence (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Monday, 9 May 2022 14:21 (two years ago) link
apparently I can't like to a specific time - add &t=2210s to that URL
― joygoat, Monday, 9 May 2022 14:22 (two years ago) link
Jerry’s voice before it went to shit had a lovely timbre
the minute that any vocals happen, I want to turn the music off.
lol the fact that both of these are commonly held opinions is one of the great paradoxes of the Dead.
― Three Rings for the Elven Bishop (Dan Peterson), Monday, 9 May 2022 14:24 (two years ago) link
The vocals are fine on the albums. No one’s required to listen to live shows.My controversial Dead opinion is that they were very significant album band, and you could exclusively listen to the albums (studio plus major/official “live” ones), and be very fulfilled.
― Bob Dylan's iconic Ray Ban sunglasses (morrisp), Monday, 9 May 2022 14:25 (two years ago) link
As a moderate fan, I feel an outsider as I have probably only listened to about 15 - 20 % of their live catalogue. The sheer size of the catalogue, and number of versions of songs, is intimidating - and then there’s other irritations such as the more annoying cult-like fans, and distaste for the corporate bloat that the whole money-making GD enterprise became (and still is).Great band overall though.
― Luna Schlosser, Monday, 9 May 2022 14:26 (two years ago) link
Two summers ago I listened to approximately ~25 versions of "Dark Star" as an exercise, and it allowed me— who really only knew a few major studio records and Europe '72— to understand why people go gaga over this stuff. Alas, the singing keeps me from really taking a deeper dive than that experiment allowed me, but I don't mind it if people put the Dead on or whatever. I just find the phenomenon really funny in an almost confusing way!
― we need outrage! we need dicks!! (the table is the table), Monday, 9 May 2022 16:33 (two years ago) link
Haven't seen The Grateful Dead Movie, but The Closing of Winterland-1978) used to get broadcast as as local PBS fundraiser, and certainly had the twinkly bits minus crap animation x fanz (lots more music on 4-CD soundtrack, and DVD incl. a whole sep. New Years show at Winterland, but I've never seen it); also, I'm told that Downhill From Here(1989) is a good concert doc. Also have only seen bits of the Sunshine Daydream concert show, although album is good. Excerpts incl. ugly dancing and sweat, glaring radiation ov Sun.
― dow, Monday, 9 May 2022 16:44 (two years ago) link
xpost Then, like me, this might probably be your favorite GD release.
https://plunderphonic.bandcamp.com/album/grayfolded
― Ned Raggett, Monday, 9 May 2022 16:47 (two years ago) link
The vox just murder this band for me, and I can actually take some Jerry without running screaming for the hills (I will rep for Shady Grove with David Grisman as one of the alltime great albums of renditions of folksongs).I just tried to imagine what singer would make the Dead appealing to me, and after some soul-searching it turns out it’s Perry Farrell (circa Ritual), triple-tracked vocals and treatments and all. I think I could listen to that all day. (Not sure how it would fare on chuggers like “Casey Jones” or whatevs, but I’d listen to a lot of “Dark Star” in that mode.)
― war mice (hardcore dilettante), Monday, 9 May 2022 16:52 (two years ago) link
But then who am I kidding? I could listen to a lot of “Dark Star” in any mode. I put together a playlist of every version I could find on Spotify in chronological order — about 20 hours’ worth. AND I’VE LISTENED TO IT
― war mice (hardcore dilettante), Monday, 9 May 2022 16:55 (two years ago) link
Also have only seen bits of the Sunshine Daydream concert show, although album is good. Excerpts incl. ugly dancing and sweat, glaring radiation ov Sun.
Naked pole guy! Honestly, the "Dark Star" from that show is essential Dead viewing imo. It's a killer version, probably my favorite ever, by itself, but paired with the encroaching dusk as they played makes it a little harder (provided of course you get past the crap animations they dropped in between the footage).
― a superficial sheeb of intelligence (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Monday, 9 May 2022 17:02 (two years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aG2lkIRoCqc
― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Monday, 9 May 2022 17:04 (two years ago) link
the "Dark Star" from that show is essential Dead viewing imo.
That "Dark Star" was what made me do a complete (and completely unexpected) 180 on the Dead. Despised them for decades, then suddenly, "...hm...this is...good...?"
― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Monday, 9 May 2022 17:05 (two years ago) link
And therein lies my contradictory Dead opinion: I have yet to be transported by a "Dark Star." I like the earliest ones best, when they're 5 or 6 minutes. After that became one of their lengthy exploratory vehicles I just lose patience. One person's lovely twinkly bits are another's self-indulgent nonsense, I guess.
― Three Rings for the Elven Bishop (Dan Peterson), Monday, 9 May 2022 17:27 (two years ago) link
Even though I've already been a big fan of "Dark Star", I've been enjoying this blog, Every Dark Star, that does what the title says and has some folks going through every "Dark Star" in chronological order, noting the developments of the various themes and modular jams over the years. Paired with specific timing notations, I've found it to be a really great supplement while I'm listening.
― a superficial sheeb of intelligence (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Monday, 9 May 2022 17:32 (two years ago) link
Well that's why I linked Grayfolded above there. It kinda IS the ultimate "Dark Star."
― Ned Raggett, Monday, 9 May 2022 17:56 (two years ago) link
I could take or leave "Dark Star," it's definitely never been a cornerstone of my Dead appreciation (just to provide a contrasting experience).
― Bob Dylan's iconic Ray Ban sunglasses (morrisp), Monday, 9 May 2022 18:05 (two years ago) link
Well that's why I linked _Grayfolded_ above there. It kinda IS the ultimate "Dark Star."
― calstars, Monday, 9 May 2022 19:04 (two years ago) link
one of my quarantine projects has been to listen to all my Dead shows in order. I'm up to November '77 and all three shows I've heard absolutely rip. that Colgate show in particular is as good if not better than the best May shows.
― Honkin’ on Cobo (jamescobo), Monday, 9 May 2022 19:10 (two years ago) link
One of my favorite little corners of the live catalog is in the mid-80s when Jerry’s voice is really fading and he does slow, often death-related, ballads. 83-85 Baby Blues and Stella Blues tend to be good examples of this. His croaky voice makes it sound like It Really Is All Over Now, Baby Blue. The She Belongs to Me from the Greek Theater in June ‘85 is prob my favorite example. The series of killer guitar solos don’t hurt.
― tobo73, Monday, 9 May 2022 19:27 (two years ago) link
I've never minded their voices, but now it occurs to me that one could make copies of mostly instrumental performances, edit out the vocal bits---also, I like David Murray's Dark Star---The Music of the Grateful Dead, with his Octet, except the final track feat. just him and Weir (playing acoustic guitar). The 'Tube usually has at least one show clip of Murray onstage with the Dead---when they were trying to make up for Garcia's fade by bringing on the guests (wish I could find Ornette's appearance). Think there might be more w Murray in the Dead section of archive.org.
― dow, Monday, 9 May 2022 20:05 (two years ago) link
The late jerry ballads are too real Like Elvis doing American trilogy live in 76-77
― calstars, Monday, 9 May 2022 20:27 (two years ago) link
thanks for that link, Ned.
― we need outrage! we need dicks!! (the table is the table), Monday, 9 May 2022 20:55 (two years ago) link
Grayfolded rules, happy to see more love here (Oswald is also a genius, deep digging is rewarding)
― thinkmanship (sleeve), Monday, 9 May 2022 23:33 (two years ago) link
Yeah you can pick up all five of his releases on Bandcamp there for $25 I think — well worth it.
― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 10 May 2022 00:07 (two years ago) link
Wow, listening to the Doors album, it’s great! Eccojams https://plunderphonic.bandcamp.com/album/elektrax
― calstars, Tuesday, 10 May 2022 00:24 (two years ago) link
yeah Elektrax is amazing, "vane" is my fave there
― thinkmanship (sleeve), Tuesday, 10 May 2022 00:27 (two years ago) link
― Three Rings for the Elven Bishop (Dan Peterson), Monday, May 9, 2022 12:27 PM (seven hours ago) bookmarkflaglink
I think I said similar a few times upthread. BOOOOOring.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, 10 May 2022 00:29 (two years ago) link
also, many xps: I've always disliked most of the Dead graphics (other than the skull as others said), and I think it was an impediment to me getting into them. They really have some of the most uniquely terrible yet iconic art.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, 10 May 2022 00:30 (two years ago) link
I kinda want a poster of the dead set cover arthttps://www.dead.net/sites/g/files/g2000007851/files/dead_site_files/images/19810826_1551.jpg
― brimstead, Tuesday, 10 May 2022 00:50 (two years ago) link
I mean in aggregate their album art isn't the worst ever, but the dancing bear, the ice cream guy as noted above, etc.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, 10 May 2022 01:07 (two years ago) link
HIGH-STEPPING BEAR!!
― Bob Dylan's iconic Ray Ban sunglasses (morrisp), Tuesday, 10 May 2022 01:25 (two years ago) link
Here come the highsteppa (owsleybear)
― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 10 May 2022 01:56 (two years ago) link
Hold up, bear!
EXCLUSIVE: A podcast about the disappearance and murder of a number of Grateful Dead fans is the latest audio series to be adapted for television.Joe Berlinger, the filmmaker behind iconic rock doc Metallica: Some Kind of Monster and a slew of true-crime docuseries, has teamed up with Wheelhouse Entertainment to develop Dead and Gone as a scripted series.The podcast, a true crime music mystery set in the world of Jerry Garcia’s psychedelic rock band, comes from To Live and Die in LA producer Tenderfoot TV and Disgraceland producer Double Elvis....“Joe Berlinger’s contribution to the true crime space is simply unmatched, and there is no one we’d rather partner with to adapt this complex investigation to the small screen. Many people don’t realize this larger story behind the Grateful Dead, and even though they’re so associated with ideas of freewill and positivity, it’s important we draw attention to these terrible occurrences existing within the fanbase,” added co-hosts Payne Lindsey and Jake Brennan.
Joe Berlinger, the filmmaker behind iconic rock doc Metallica: Some Kind of Monster and a slew of true-crime docuseries, has teamed up with Wheelhouse Entertainment to develop Dead and Gone as a scripted series.
The podcast, a true crime music mystery set in the world of Jerry Garcia’s psychedelic rock band, comes from To Live and Die in LA producer Tenderfoot TV and Disgraceland producer Double Elvis.
...“Joe Berlinger’s contribution to the true crime space is simply unmatched, and there is no one we’d rather partner with to adapt this complex investigation to the small screen. Many people don’t realize this larger story behind the Grateful Dead, and even though they’re so associated with ideas of freewill and positivity, it’s important we draw attention to these terrible occurrences existing within the fanbase,” added co-hosts Payne Lindsey and Jake Brennan.
― dow, Tuesday, 10 May 2022 01:59 (two years ago) link
it’s important we draw attention to these terrible occurrences existing within the fanbase
― Bob Dylan's iconic Ray Ban sunglasses (morrisp), Tuesday, 10 May 2022 02:06 (two years ago) link
xps re: late Jerry ballads, most of my Dead listening is pre-1980 but he absolutely sings the shit out of this “Ship of Fools” from 8/11/87:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIS3HtR_s1M
Also “Dark Star” is forever and always my favorite Dead thing, and I realize there’s nothing I can say to change anyone’s mind about it, but I would urge anyone who hasn’t heard the version from 8/1/73 to check it out. Peak blissed-out space fusion Dead with a long ambient post-verse jam with Jerry on searing slide guitar. And imo an even better -> “El Paso” than Veneta.
― J. Sam, Tuesday, 10 May 2022 14:10 (two years ago) link
Also never skip an “El Paso”
― J. Sam, Tuesday, 10 May 2022 14:11 (two years ago) link
Agreed about 8/1/73. There’s a version on the archive where the sound quality on Dark Star etc is prob the best I’ve heard for any 1973 recording. Stonerific.
― tobo73, Tuesday, 10 May 2022 14:54 (two years ago) link