― j.lu (j.lu), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 12:56 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 13:19 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 13:35 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 13:36 (twenty-two years ago) link
Custos: "The very non-conservative influence of Reggae had a much more lasting and relevant effect"Mark S.: this sentence would be (ridiculous|paradoxical) even in a argument NOT about punkCustos: (sigh.) Admit it, Mark S....Reggae has had more long-term impact on Punk than rockabilly/50's rock ever did. There's maybe three or four Punk bands with noticable rockabilly flava (X, Misfits, Cramps) whereas theres two different sub-genres: Ska and 2-Tone that grew out of reggae-tinged Punk. All the current Neo-Punkers (Mighty Mighty Boss Tones, No Doubt, everything on the Epitaph) all have very clearly audible reggae influence.Mark S.: No it isn't.Custos: Yes it is.Mark S.: No it isn't.Custos: Look, I don't want to argue about that.Mark S.: Yes you do.Custos: This isn't argument...this is just contradiction.Mark S.: No it isn't.Custos: Oh, this is futile...Mark S.: No it isn't...
― Lord Custos Alpha (Lord Custos Alpha), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 14:21 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 14:22 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 14:28 (twenty-two years ago) link
― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 14:37 (twenty-two years ago) link
Lord Custos: "When Joyce wrote Finnegans Wake it was the most original novel of its day!! So now when I copy it word for word that will make me the most original novelist now living!!"
― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 14:46 (twenty-two years ago) link
Also, Fritz: clarify what you mean by "conservative", I know you don't mean politically or aesthetically, but that word seems to be what keeps tripping me up.
― Lord Custos Alpha (Lord Custos Alpha), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 14:49 (twenty-two years ago) link
Lord Custos: "When Joyce wrote Finnegans Wake it was the most original novel of its day!! So now when I copy it word for word that will make me the most original novelist now living!!"You're wandering off, again, Mark. Focus on what I'm saying, not on what you think you suspect you seem to feel that I might possibly be implying...
― Lord Custos Alpha (Lord Custos Alpha), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 14:52 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Lord Custos Alpha (Lord Custos Alpha), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 14:54 (twenty-two years ago) link
custos! this is ALL WRONG! Like flat-out NOT TRUE.
the clash for one had rockabilly AND reggae influences (since you addressed that post to mark s., allow me to pipe in on his behalf: the clash R not punk and there R no influences) and k-zillion other punk bands with 50's rockabilly/roots/country in 'em or rockabilly/country/roots bands with punk in 'em.
besides which 2-Tone and Ska are the same thing not two different subgenres (oh ok you could argue that 2-tone was a subset of ska but who cares)! and SKA predates REGGAE let alone PUNK let alone reggae-tinged punk!
and if i could clarify what I meant by conservative I would but I've tried, man, I've really tried.
― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 14:56 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 14:58 (twenty-two years ago) link
it may have been contrary to the mainstream culture, but the "back to basics" attitude of Ramones et al was about affirming the intended audience's beliefs that the culture had lost its way which = conservatism
― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 15:02 (twenty-two years ago) link
The point is that these elements weren't usually used in a conservative manner. Reusing the past isn't always conservative. In the case of Punk it was commonly not a major point (maybe Whirlwind or something).
I reject the notion of 57-67. There was plenty Bowie, Kraftwerk, and T Rex there. There was plenty of hard rock. There was plenty of Disco there too. Man Machine, Silver Machine, Silver Convention.
"Ska grew out of punk" No it didn't.
"maybe three or four Punk bands with noticable rockabilly flava" Suicide, Generation X, The Birthday Party, The Clash, The Rezillos, B52s, Adam and the Ants. (and expand Rockabilly to cover all pre-Beatles American pop and its hard to find a band that isn't)
― Sandy Blair, Tuesday, 27 August 2002 15:04 (twenty-two years ago) link
Fritz: the clash for one had rockabilly AND reggae influences..[..]the clash for one had rockabilly AND reggae influences..[..]the clash R not punk and there R no influencesUh....this is a contradiction...a. the clash for one had rockabilly AND reggae influences..b. the clash R not punk and there R no influences...a. rockabilly AND reggae influences..b. there R no influences...a. influences...b. no influences...
Fritz: and k-zillion other punk bands with 50's rockabilly/roots/country in 'em or rockabilly/country/roots bands with punk in 'em.I guess I'm using an artificially narrow definition of Punk.
Fritz: and SKA predates REGGAE let alone PUNK let alone reggae-tinged punk!When I say Ska(2) I'm referring to the white-people made version from the late 70s, not Ska(1) the original pre-Rockstready proto-Reggae dance music from 1950s Jamaica.
Fritz: and if i could clarify what I meant by conservative I would but I've tried, man, I've really tried.Okay. Fair enough. What word should we use instead then, so we all stop bickering like partisans? Is this all about a "status-quo enforcing" impulse in Punk? A "return to the roots" impulse in Punk? A "fear of the different" impulse?
― Lord Custos Alpha (Lord Custos Alpha), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 15:06 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Lord Custos Alpha (Lord Custos Alpha), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 15:11 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 15:15 (twenty-two years ago) link
It's dialectical.
― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 15:15 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 15:22 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 15:24 (twenty-two years ago) link
and please note that this is based on "Alley-Oop" not real facts
Roots reggae always had a conservative slant
and hell yeah to that! I still don't understand why the emperor-worshipping back-to-the-land anti-gay anti-woman pro-Bible religious elements of reggae get such a free pass to groovytown just because they smoke pot (take out the emperor and bible and you got the MC5 too)
― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 15:29 (twenty-two years ago) link
Lord C. - what are the differences between ska(1) and ska(2)?
― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 15:31 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Lord Custos Alpha (Lord Custos Alpha), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 15:33 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Lord Custos Alpha (Lord Custos Alpha), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 15:34 (twenty-two years ago) link
have I got an ILE thread for you ;)
― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 15:36 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 15:39 (twenty-two years ago) link
The Clash and some others responded (I think) to the liberation theology in there - and the groove - but that spark seems to have been quite ably contained somehow.Tragic, really. We shoulda let it all flow out of us.
I mean the last time I was over at June Cleaver's she had Bob Marley - "Legend" in her CD stack. And "London Calling".Yeah, but YOUR June Cleaver is Rockist Scum who has the records but never listens to them. The June Cleaver I'm referring to still thinks Tony Bennett is too racy for her blood.
Fritz: have I got an ILE thread for youPost a link, and I'll take a look.
― Lord Custos Alpha (Lord Custos Alpha), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 15:40 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 15:55 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 16:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
That's Mark on the left getting rid of Custos in the middle while Fritz looks on in horror. I'm in the background with the white hat thinking "The hell?"
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 16:26 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 16:27 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 17:18 (twenty-two years ago) link
What you're talking about definitely applies to many punk subgenres, but I think the "alt-country" movement might be a better example of "musical conservatism."
― Clyde, Tuesday, 27 August 2002 17:37 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Lord Custos Alpha (Lord Custos Alpha), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 20:10 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Lord Custos Alpha (Lord Custos Alpha), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 20:13 (twenty-two years ago) link
Tracer I don't agree - the look is more negative than just jealousy. I read it as a bit of jealousy, a bit of fear, a bit of disappointment. I think punk - like most 'scenes' - must have been a crushing disappointment for a lot of scared or shy kids who wanted a place where they could 'fit in' and 'be themselves' and discovered that it *was* themselves who made them unable to fit in, not the square straight world (or whatever).
― Tom (Groke), Wednesday, 28 August 2002 08:26 (twenty-two years ago) link
― mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 28 August 2002 08:42 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Lord Custos Alpha (Lord Custos Alpha), Wednesday, 28 August 2002 12:10 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 28 August 2002 15:54 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Wednesday, 28 August 2002 16:15 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Wednesday, 28 August 2002 16:22 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Wednesday, 28 August 2002 16:24 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Nate Patrin, Wednesday, 28 August 2002 16:44 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Nate Patrin, Wednesday, 28 August 2002 16:45 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Nate Patrin, Wednesday, 28 August 2002 16:51 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Tracer hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 28 August 2002 17:27 (twenty-two years ago) link