Don Juan's for me, no objectivity here just love
"In my dweems we fwy"
― Milton Parker, Friday, 4 September 2009 21:33 (fifteen years ago) link
i ended up voting for blue and predict a massive "silent majority" effect in these poll results
― i'm beasting off the riesling (M@tt He1ges0n), Friday, 4 September 2009 21:41 (fifteen years ago) link
For what -- Wild Things Run Fast?
Dubya had her cover of "You're So Square" on his iPod a few years ago.
― My life is butthurt so badly (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 4 September 2009 21:43 (fifteen years ago) link
Court & Spark
― Turangalila, Friday, 4 September 2009 21:44 (fifteen years ago) link
blue, hejira or mingus for me. three different stages of a woman. i haven't decided yet. actuallky i don'tb think there is a best. but everything after wild things run fast was sub par.
― alex in mainhattan, Friday, 4 September 2009 21:46 (fifteen years ago) link
kind of surprised she's done as many albums after mingus as before. even if it took three times as long.
mingus is odd, touching, underrated, i think bcz of how understated it is as memorial and testimony
the stuff around hejira, with the sort of variable-length wobbly-melodied lines, seems way better than anything else to me. that sort of structure stopped her from falling into hippie truism, which when she does such i loathe it
i still don't know about how i feel about jaco pastorius tho
― thomp, Friday, 4 September 2009 22:30 (fifteen years ago) link
don't get M@tt started on Jaco IIRC
― Man Is Nairf! (J0hn D.), Friday, 4 September 2009 22:55 (fifteen years ago) link
I'm struggling here with why anyone would vote for anything other than Blue.
― anagram, Friday, 4 September 2009 23:11 (fifteen years ago) link
― Man Is Nairf! (J0hn D.), Friday, September 4, 2009 10:55 PM (24 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
lol seriously i am a total asshole about jaco, believe j0hn
― i'm beasting off the riesling (M@tt He1ges0n), Friday, 4 September 2009 23:20 (fifteen years ago) link
c'mon don't tell me no one is gonna vote for Hejira
― Gigolo Grasiento (baaderonixx), Saturday, 5 September 2009 00:02 (fifteen years ago) link
hissing for me. saw an otherwise excellent doco on her a little while back and this album wasn't even mentioned :-(
― nonightsweats, Saturday, 5 September 2009 00:26 (fifteen years ago) link
C&S
― iago g., Saturday, 5 September 2009 01:04 (fifteen years ago) link
My vote and my top 3 are the same as Geir's. Maybe Blue and Dog Eat Dog round out the top 5 for me.
― Paul in Santa Cruz, Saturday, 5 September 2009 01:29 (fifteen years ago) link
For The Roses has crept back up in my estimation. Now it's equal with Hissing and Blue behind Hejira which is always and 4 ever my fave.
― Tim F, Saturday, 5 September 2009 02:29 (fifteen years ago) link
Spent many many hours listening to Blue and Court & Spark way back when. The voice, music and the half-tone slightly mysterious photos of Joni on those 2 albums - that was an awesome combo when I was 14 or so. Voted Blue, that was the first one.
― that's not my post, Saturday, 5 September 2009 03:44 (fifteen years ago) link
xposts:"ended up voting for blue and predict a massive "silent majority" effect in these poll results""I'm struggling here with why anyone would vote for anything other than Blue"
"Spent many many hours listening to Blue and Court & Spark way back when. The voice, music and the half-tone slightly mysterious photos of Joni on those 2 albums - that was an awesome combo when I was 14 or so. Voted Blue, that was the first one."
agreeeed! in addition to Blue and Court and Spark, For the Roses always hit close to home, and either could be the top pick on any given day. Hejira then Hissing... round out me pee-oh-vee.
― outdoor_miner, Saturday, 5 September 2009 04:41 (fifteen years ago) link
Feel like a total asshole for voting Miles of Aisles but there is no better combination of her songs on record!!! Don't hate me ILM, esp. if you include RAD live albums on career retrospective polls!!!
― *⁂((✪⥎✪))⁂* (Steve Shasta), Saturday, 5 September 2009 05:24 (fifteen years ago) link
nah, Miles of Aisles is great, esp. the full-band songs.
― Houston (Euler), Saturday, 5 September 2009 06:56 (fifteen years ago) link
I love Joni more than most music geeks, but I can't really pretend any other album comes close to 'Blue,' for me.
― Soundslike, Saturday, 5 September 2009 07:27 (fifteen years ago) link
Yeah, see, I love Blue -- my first Joni, etc -- but I don't play it as much as C&S, Hissing of Summer Lawns, or Hejira.
― My life is butthurt so badly (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 5 September 2009 11:49 (fifteen years ago) link
Blue is really a very time/place/emotion specific record. It's really hard to listen to large parts of it if I'm in a very specific frame of mind (generally full-blown depression, anxiety, etc). C&S can really come on at any time, though.
― Mordy, Saturday, 5 September 2009 11:56 (fifteen years ago) link
Unless I'm in a very...*
I love Blue but I don't really get its mystique as this depressive mopefest of an album. A good half of it seems fairly upbeat to me.
― Tim F, Saturday, 5 September 2009 14:31 (fifteen years ago) link
Summer Lawns, easy. Weirdly, I have the exact same top 3 as Geir. Thought I could rely on him to complain about The Jungle Line being "insufficently melodic".
― Dorian (Dorianlynskey), Saturday, 5 September 2009 15:50 (fifteen years ago) link
"Hejira" although really there's a few of these records that are so good that rating one over another is kind of pointless.
― \/*|_*/-\*|) (Pashmina), Saturday, 5 September 2009 15:58 (fifteen years ago) link
Blue because it touches my very soul and I know that sounds totally corny.
― Nathalie (stevienixed), Saturday, 5 September 2009 16:03 (fifteen years ago) link
m@tt, please tell me how you feel about the playing of jaco pastorius purely on joni's mid-period work. including his solo spots on shadows + light tour if you wish:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOqR84PtctA
― thomp, Saturday, 5 September 2009 18:16 (fifteen years ago) link
jaco shreds
― *⁂((✪⥎✪))⁂* (Steve Shasta), Saturday, 5 September 2009 18:28 (fifteen years ago) link
had to double check it wasn't an StS vid..............
Exactly.
― jaymc, Saturday, 5 September 2009 22:24 (fifteen years ago) link
Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.
― System, Tuesday, 29 September 2009 23:01 (fourteen years ago) link
Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.
― System, Wednesday, 30 September 2009 23:01 (fourteen years ago) link
pffffffff
― spiny doughboy (baaderonixx), Thursday, 1 October 2009 05:52 (fourteen years ago) link
I don't understand why Ladies & Court are so low. :(
― Turangalila, Thursday, 1 October 2009 06:03 (fourteen years ago) link
That is the right answer.
― anagram, Thursday, 1 October 2009 07:24 (fourteen years ago) link
i probably would have ended up voting for "hissing of summer lawns" though honestly why choose?
btw what do people think of "both sides now"--the song?
― by another name (amateurist), Tuesday, 6 April 2010 08:25 (fourteen years ago) link
these results still seem surprising.
― licorice oratorio (baaderonixx), Tuesday, 6 April 2010 08:35 (fourteen years ago) link
I love "Both Sides, Now", and think it's the best song on Clouds. Oh, those vocal melodies: I swoon each time (listening now).
― offshore "drilling" for (Euler), Tuesday, 6 April 2010 08:40 (fourteen years ago) link
i would've thrown "shadows and light" a vote
― hobbes, Tuesday, 6 April 2010 08:41 (fourteen years ago) link
the Lincoln Center (I think - big public-tv presentation w/orchestra) of "Both Sides Now" took my breath away.
also, thank you this thread for helping me realize what I need to listen to tonight in this faraway place.
― Twink Will Ferrell (J0hn D.), Tuesday, 6 April 2010 08:50 (fourteen years ago) link
YOU KNOW IT SURE IS HARD TO LEAVE YOU CAREY BUT IT'S REALLY NOT MY HOME
― Twink Will Ferrell (J0hn D.), Tuesday, 6 April 2010 08:57 (fourteen years ago) link
HOPE THEY FINALLY FIXED YOUR AUTOMOBILE/HOPE IT'S BETTER WHEN WE MEET AGAIN, BABY
― Twink Will Ferrell (J0hn D.), Tuesday, 6 April 2010 09:09 (fourteen years ago) link
You're gonna come now or you're gonna come later.
― offshore "drilling" for (Euler), Tuesday, 6 April 2010 09:13 (fourteen years ago) link
i like glen campbell's syrupy version of "both sides, now"
― by another name (amateurist), Tuesday, 6 April 2010 09:14 (fourteen years ago) link
I'M GONNA MAKE A LOT OF MONEY/AND THEN I'M GONNA QUIT THIS CRAZY SCENE
― Twink Will Ferrell (J0hn D.), Tuesday, 6 April 2010 09:15 (fourteen years ago) link
what does it gotta feel like to know that you wrote this album
― Twink Will Ferrell (J0hn D.), Tuesday, 6 April 2010 09:20 (fourteen years ago) link
I guess I seem ungrateful / with my teeth sunk in the hand / that brings me things / I really can't give up just yet
― offshore "drilling" for (Euler), Tuesday, 6 April 2010 09:26 (fourteen years ago) link
The version of "Both Sides Now" on Joni's (otherwise) covers album with the same name from oh maybe five/ten years ago is pretty amazing. I dunno if there's ever been a song written by someone when they're young that is better suited to a wistful wizened "cover" by the same artist 30+ years on. It simply drips resonance.
― Tim F, Tuesday, 6 April 2010 12:58 (fourteen years ago) link
My mother, who is not a music snob, became fascinated with that 2000 version of "Both Sides Now" after hearing it in Love Actually; she would play it over and over again, deeply moved. I'm pretty fond of it myself – the best use of Joni's nicotine-scarred pipes.
― filling the medicare donut hole with the semen of liberal (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 6 April 2010 13:04 (fourteen years ago) link
weird that Clouds got zero votes here... Both Sides Now is an amazing tune
― modern eunuch-like crooning (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 6 April 2010 16:22 (fourteen years ago) link
I think nowadays producers often are expected to shape the sound somewhat, sometimes to the extent of playing the studio as an instrument, like Eno.
An engineer is more of an assistant that helps the producer or musician capture their sounds, like Albini.
― Cow_Art, Wednesday, 29 November 2023 15:32 (nine months ago) link
There's a series about Joni on BBC R4 at the moment, presented by Jesca Hoop. It's listenable enough but of the four I've heard so far (up to Don J's RD) they all end with her retreating from the limelight after anjoying popular success, scarred by fame, an artist at the crossroads...
― fetter, Wednesday, 29 November 2023 15:34 (nine months ago) link
I feel ancient these days, so toss one more vote in for Both Sides Now.
― active spectator of ecocide and dispossession (Eric H.), Wednesday, 29 November 2023 15:44 (nine months ago) link
Court and Spark for me.
― Cow_Art, Wednesday, 29 November 2023 15:48 (nine months ago) link
Me too, that one is a high water mark.
― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Wednesday, 29 November 2023 15:51 (nine months ago) link
Really enjoyed the Court and Spark Demos album that came out on Record Store Day.
― peace, man, Wednesday, 29 November 2023 16:12 (nine months ago) link
(Hejira is my real vote)
― active spectator of ecocide and dispossession (Eric H.), Wednesday, 29 November 2023 16:20 (nine months ago) link
Dolby maintains that she knew exactly what he’d been hired for and was a big fan of his productions. He thinks she was trying to sideline him and give the producer role to Larry Klein. Not sure how true that was and Dolby didn’t exactly endear himself ( he doesn’t sound like a yes man) but sounds as though he was treated pretty shoddily.
― X-Prince Protégé (sonnyboy), Wednesday, 29 November 2023 16:32 (nine months ago) link
Although lines can become blurred Producer and Engineer are two distinct roles. I’m sure Thomas Dolby is adept at working a desk and outboard equipment, the late great Mike Shipley definitely was the engineer and recorded the project. Some producers would not have a clue how to work any of the equipment in a studio.
― X-Prince Protégé (sonnyboy), Wednesday, 29 November 2023 16:37 (nine months ago) link
That's true. I can't imagine Jimmy Iovine dirtying his hands.
― stuffing your suit pockets with cold, stale chicken tende (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 29 November 2023 16:44 (nine months ago) link
As it so happens I seem to recall Jimmy Iovine did have a background in engineering. Rick Rubin, Gary Katz and Arif Mardin a three who come to mind who did not.
― X-Prince Protégé (sonnyboy), Wednesday, 29 November 2023 17:03 (nine months ago) link
I figure folks like Iovine are really good “project managers” and music biz schmoozers who know all the right technical ppl, musicians to hire? And keep things “on track” or whatever But it’s funny when you read about Kreator or The Eagles hating their relatively clean cut by-the-book producers and getting along better when they switched to producers as rowdy as themselves
― brimstead, Wednesday, 29 November 2023 17:09 (nine months ago) link
Get over it!
― stuffing your suit pockets with cold, stale chicken tende (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 29 November 2023 17:11 (nine months ago) link
To be fair to Jimmy Iovine he definitely took the teaboy/ assistant engineer-Engineer-Producer path and ascended it pretty quickly but there are plenty of producers who lucked out probably because they’re a ‘good hang’. Never been entirely sure what Rick Rubin does exactly but probably just me…
― X-Prince Protégé (sonnyboy), Wednesday, 29 November 2023 17:26 (nine months ago) link
I think he produced "Reign In Blood" and some hip-hop in the 80s, iirc
― meaner stinks meat bake it cone (flamboyant goon tie included), Wednesday, 29 November 2023 18:11 (nine months ago) link
Yeah but he doesn’t come from an engineering or musician background…he admitted it in an interview
― X-Prince Protégé (sonnyboy), Wednesday, 29 November 2023 18:28 (nine months ago) link
:) I was being cheeky
I bristled last year when there was a media blip about that Rubin interview, whereby people were claiming he was some kind of a fraud. (If only people know what role movie producers play in the creation of films, people who are basically organizers and bookkeepers and bankrollers more than directors/actors/writers/editors!)
The fact too that Eno got sideswiped by some commentators as if the only thing he does in studio is sit in a corner with his box of cards; ridiculous!
Rubin may be known, at his most detached, for being “the producer who doesn’t even come into the studio, just stays home getting blazed and listens to the day’s mixes on MP3s through stock Mac headphones and replies ‘yes’ or ‘no’,” but he does do much more than that; at the very least, he owns a fantastic studio filled with fantastic gear and staffed by fantastic techs. (I haven’t worked with him, though I’ve met him, and immediately wanted to spend all my days in the same room with him; I have worked at his studio with his gear and his techs and it was “all that”, as promised.)
It’s true that there is little-to-no comparison between a Rubin and, say, a Rundgren (or a Timbaland or an Antonoff) but that doesn’t mean his production style is illegitimate or fraudulent imo
― meaner stinks meat bake it cone (flamboyant goon tie included), Wednesday, 29 November 2023 19:02 (nine months ago) link
yeah Eno's almost always played instruments with his clients.
― stuffing your suit pockets with cold, stale chicken tende (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 29 November 2023 19:08 (nine months ago) link
I may have related this story before, because it’s one of my favourites, but, Laurie Anderson on Eno, paraphrased from memory:
“We only worked together once, I believe, but it was a memorable experience. Eno was at the board, and we were recording. Suddenly one of the channels started acting up. Eno got so excited, like, “ooooh! A PROBLEM!” That something like a channel failing would not compromise the recording experience, but rather enrich it.”
― meaner stinks meat bake it cone (flamboyant goon tie included), Wednesday, 29 November 2023 19:16 (nine months ago) link
whereby people were claiming he was some kind of a fraud
still inexhaustibly making that claim wherever & whenever his name arises
― J Edgar Noothgrush (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Wednesday, 29 November 2023 20:41 (nine months ago) link
if I die and you want to talk to me after just stand over my grave and praise Rick Rubin, I'll be right up
― J Edgar Noothgrush (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Wednesday, 29 November 2023 20:42 (nine months ago) link
rubin's also gone out of his way to cultivate this red hot chili peppers yoda ~vibe sherpa~ bullshit, like claiming on 60 minutes he doesn't know how to operate a board which is verifiably false
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 29 November 2023 21:10 (nine months ago) link
https://povmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Tom_Petty-scaled.jpg
i mostly hate the fact that he's this modern day buddha when in actuality during the 80s he was a coked up little shit, as kate schellenbach attested to in the beastie boys book
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 29 November 2023 21:12 (nine months ago) link
Maybe he "he doesn't know how to operate a board" the way Eno claims he "doesn't play an instrument" - he's a talented amateur rather than a technician.
― Halfway there but for you, Wednesday, 29 November 2023 21:20 (nine months ago) link
Sorry I sidetracked the thread…The Thomas Dolby interview is great though
― X-Prince Protégé (sonnyboy), Wednesday, 29 November 2023 21:28 (nine months ago) link
Wish that Dolby interview was available somewhere other than Spotify. I ain't goin' there.
― SQUIRREL MEAT!! (Capitaine Jay Vee), Wednesday, 29 November 2023 22:53 (nine months ago) link
his autobio (The Speed Of Sound) has all the details, his summary is "despite all that, I cannot fault Joni"
-TD otm
― out-of-print LaserDisc edition (sleeve), Wednesday, 29 November 2023 22:56 (nine months ago) link
Inspired by this thread I have been going back thru Joni's 80s and 90s work, Night Ride Home towers over the 80s stuff, but I had not stopped to appreciate how much "Passion Play" is a direct reworking of "Hejira", even down to the arrangement, and of course riffs on a lyric from "Coyote". Has she ever talked about the decision to revisit that song?
― assert (matttkkkk), Wednesday, 29 November 2023 23:33 (nine months ago) link
also - great cover fgti, nailed it
― assert (matttkkkk), Wednesday, 29 November 2023 23:41 (nine months ago) link
omg you saw that? Thank you. Honestly my fave Joni song after “…Richard”
― meaner stinks meat bake it cone (flamboyant goon tie included), Thursday, 30 November 2023 03:18 (nine months ago) link
Yeah I love fgti's version too.
This thread always makes me return to Dog Eat Dog to try to engage with it more/better, but I always founder. I discussed this some time ago upthread, but it's not the production that I have an issue with (in fact I really like the production), but the approach to songwriting. The songs feel fragmented, a series of disconnected vamps assembled at almost random - this sounds like an interesting quality in theory, but it leans hard away from one of Joni's key strengths as a songwriter, which is how she can use the connective tissue within her songs to build intensity and momentum, whereas these songs don't have much in the way of connective tissue (maybe one reason for the heavy-handed subject matter is to provide a narrative through line to make up for the arrangements and performances).
Using "Passion Play" as a counterexample, the first half of the song is structured very repetitively melodically, so that when she first introduces the variation on the chorus ("Oh, enter the multitudes / the walking wounded / they come to this diver of the heart of the multitudes") it's like a sudden deepening and intensification of what was already there, even though the shift is quite subtle.
And - a quality Night Ride Home shares with Hejira - because of the sheer density of her lyrics, each iteration of a verse melody needs to be slightly different to accommodate the syllables and phrasing, the stresses falling on different words and notes in order to tell the story effectively.
Both albums capture this very evocative sense of changing same.
― Tim F, Thursday, 30 November 2023 05:45 (nine months ago) link
"Fiction" strikes me as the DED song whose arrangement matches the synths.
― stuffing your suit pockets with cold, stale chicken tende (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 30 November 2023 10:33 (nine months ago) link
Yes definitely has the Dolby touch…’Shiny Toys’ and ‘Lucky Girl’ also both have an unmistakable Dolby vibe…hadn’t listened to DED in years but surprised by how well it stands up…possibly my fave of her 80’s output
― X-Prince Protégé (sonnyboy), Thursday, 30 November 2023 11:07 (nine months ago) link
because of the sheer density of her lyrics, each iteration of a verse melody _needs_ to be slightly different to accommodate the syllables and phrasing, the stresses falling on different words and notes
― assert (matttkkkk), Thursday, 30 November 2023 11:42 (nine months ago) link