The Byrds: Classic Or Dud

Search: anything written abt the first UK tour (1965?), said (well, someone once said it to me) to be the LOUDEST thing anyone had till then heard. Not prettines: VOLUME. You don't get that on the records.

Destroy: anything anyone has ever called Byrdsy.

(And what about Duane Allman, or one of those dudes?)

My opinions on which of his albums was 'best' change from day to day but I suspect you're reacting a bit too strongly to ALS's being highly rated.

All the songs on Mr. Tambourine Man are gorgeous, euphoric. I haven't listened to their later songs in a long time, but 'Chestnut Mare' stands out. I mean there's a point when you can imagine the guy throwing the lasso - infinitely gentle but a conquest nonetheless - what a great idea for a song!

I didn't know what 'Bells of Rhymney' was about until now, but that makes it interesting. At the end of Fifth Dimension, two of the band members talk for a long time, and it's all about the idealism of the sixties in the U.S. So it could just have been profound innocence and optimism at that stage that made them decide to perform a song about a disaster as a 'pop-art abstracted jangle' - not that this is something that needs to be defended. If indie pop bands look back to the Byrds, it must be for this reason.

As for the Byrds, Classic of course. Don't know of many other bands with at least four great songwriters - Gene Clark, McGuinn, Hillman and even Crosby back in the day - who could also sing, play, produce etc. Everything after 'Sweetheart of the Radio' is patchy, and DESTROY the terrible 'reunion' alb they made in the early 70s.

The M/H/C/C/C line up did Mr Tambourine Man/Turn!Turn!Turn!/Fifth Dimension. (OK, I know Gene was missing for most of 3D) All excellent, especially the debut and 3D. I always felt that TTT has a couple of slow songs (He was a Friend of Mine/Lay Down Your Weary tune) which drag compared to the debut, and some of the harmonies are sicklier than they need to be. It does contain Gene Clark's monumental "The World Turns All Around Her" though. Each of these three albums contains one abomination - We'll Meet Again, Oh Susanna! and The Lear Jet Song respectively.

Part 2, exit Gene, but Chris Hillman ALMOST makes up for this on "Younger Than Yesterday" by writing Time Between/Girl with No Name and and a couple of others. We're heading in a Country-ish direction though. Watch Out! Oh, and best song is Crosby's "Everbody's Been Burned", although he deserves to be horribly disfigured for subjecting us to the horror that is "Mind Gardens". Ignoring this horror - another great album. Less than a year on, and Crozza has gone too, but contributed some good stuff to the heady "Notorious Byrds Brothers". Surprise, surprise it's great too, but very different to what went before. McGuinn this time supplies the obligatory clunker with "Space Oddessey", which also serves as the "song about space flight or flying" which all Byrds albums must have. Best track - Goffin and King's "Goin' Back.

So parts one and two - Classic. On to Phase 3, and this is where it gets choppy. I have never understood the attraction of Gram Parsons, and just cannot get into "Sweetheart of the Rodeo". Just too country for me, I guess. I also think that McGuinn's reputation is extremely tarnished from here on in. For a start, as 'leader' of the band he doesn't exactly contribute many good songs. Then again, maybe he never did - if I had to make a c-90 of the best of the Byrds, I'd start with Gene Clark's songs, cherry pick from Crosby, put on all of Chris Hillman's and THEN get onto McGuinn. The other big problem is that he let some real fools into the band, and what's worse - let them WRITE! Yep, Skip Battin I mean YOU! And Gene Parsons.

While I'm on the subject of Parsons' - has there ever been a drummer more unsuited to the band he found himself in? Clearly the Byrds needed a sympahetic, supportive drummer to replace M. Clarke. What do they get - a flash, domineering idiot who couldn't keep time. Just listen to the live side of "Untitled" or the Fillmore album if you don't believe me.

The last phase is not without merit - you get Clarence White's boggling country-psyche picking, and "Untitled" is a spirited effort, but to me The Byrds means "Mr Tambourine Man through to "Notorious...", and is effortlessly Classic.

Point of information: as far as I can make out, the lyric of 'Chestnut Mare' is based on a tall tale at the beginning of Ibsen's Peer Gynt, with a horse substituted for a stag. This may not be quite right: there may have been another, more local source which had the same root as Ibsen; or McGuinn and Ibsen might both have been drawing on a very old source. But the resemblance (and genealogical relation) is not in doubt.

Strange feature of the interview on the end of the CD: McGuinn and Crosby taking each others' names.

McGuinn has never been coy about acknowledging Coltrane, as far as I know - he's always seemed up-front about it to me, almost to the point of banging on excessively. I certainly don't hold that against the Byrds; and indeed I like it when people say that 'Eight Miles High' is their favourite 45 of all time.

Please don't Destroy anyone who's ever been called Byrdsy. I'm all scared now.

x0x0x

i hate country music.

search: _chronic town_, _murmur_, husker du's take on "eight miles high."

Don't worry about it Sundar, nobody's perfect ;).

The Byrds = Classic. I don't listen to them all that often, but they sing pretty and I've liked almost everything I've heard by them.

So, Search for : "I know my Rider" and "Eight Miles High [RCA version] (extra tracks on the reissue of 5D) "All The Things" (from Untitled), "Don't Make Waves" (extra track on reissue of Younger than Yesterday), "She Don't Care about Time" (2 versions n the re-issue of TTT)

get out those Joe Cocker records! Soul baby!

BTW, when Rog McGuinn first got his small Moog Modular system, he was completely stumped by it. He called Bob Moog, and was reportedly told that if he didn't know how to use it, then he shouldn't have bought it! This is as nothing compared to the other early synth pioneer Donald Buchla. I heard of one fellow who bought a used buchla system, and phoned buchla & co for service info. Buchla then phoned up the guy he'd bought it off, and shouted abuse down the phone along the lines of "HOW DARE YOU SELL THE INSTRUMENT i CUSTOM MADE FOR YOU!!!"

Moog modular synthesisers are available new from a company called moog custom engineering, but IMO those wishing to record moog ragas of their very own would be advised to check out:

http://www.synthtech.com http://www.wiard.com http://www.modcan.com

x0x0

Earliest ref to the Indian influence I can find is that in late '65, McGuinn used his Rickenbacker guitar to simulate the sound of a Sitar on the track "Why' ; first version of 'Eight Miles High' recorded at the same session. So quite early, but dunno if it predates 'Paint it Black' and George Harrison's first 'Eastern' influenced songs. And yes, "someone shd do something on how Folkways as a whole got unrock noises into the rock bloodstream." - I'll read it if you write it! The Smithsonian Institute are currently reissuing many of the old albs (many on CD-R!), and I have a pretty comprehensive catalogue for this, so I might do a bit more digging...

The raga stuff: so is it a case of parallel evolution (which is, like, not impossible) or is it chart-pop rivals jockeying for Best Use of this Week's Gimmick (which is the Secret Story of Rock, 64-68)? Lennon-McCartney (latter esp.) made a project of study of their whippersnapper competitors: could they even have been researching Byrds out-takes?

Folkways: It's another whole chapter. Oh joy. Or is that Oh fuck.

Brilliant: I knew the Byrds would one day deliver something of massive pleasure to me, and this is it. Respeck, Dr C.

(Actually when I was playing them earlier today the only track I wanted to give a second listen was 'Mind Gardens'! They're probably my number-one Yes-yes-I-know- they're-great-can-we-listen-to-something- else-now-please? band... Guess I must still not be playing them loud enough.)

http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~tewing/rockmach.html

...and shudder in astonishment as FT actually prints something which is WELL-RESEARCHED (or *at all* researched)

Heaven knows I'm miserable now.

I am a convert, needless to say.

But I am reviving now to say: THE PREFLYTE SESSIONS: SEARCH! Or Destroy, whatever you want. I just want to hear some views on that collection. 'You Movin'' - wow!

I haven't listened to The Byrds for ages, apart from Untitled. I enjoyed the live stuff especially and I am forced to concede that I was possibly too harsh on Gene Parsons upthread. S.Battin is still a tool.

I'm amazed I didn't rise to the bait of the Doc ragging on Gene Parsons, because I'm a great admirer of his solo "The Kindling Album". His LP "Melodies" is less good, despite the promising title.

I think "Yesterday's Train" is beautiful, even.

I've never heard "Pre-Flyte", having always worked on the assumption that I don't really like The Byrds pre-Gram. I have a horrible feeling that this is a contrarian position I once took, sometime around 1987, and then the wind changed and I got stuck like that.

Perhaps I have some treats in store.

As a friend says about Ringo, if you think Michael Clarke sucks, you think the Byrds suck. (see also: Nick Mason) Clarke was perfect for what they were doing, and I would be surprised if even the most skilled session drummer could've come up with what Clarke did on "Eight Miles High." I think some of the general negative feeling about Clarke comes from that session outtake -- can't remember which deluxe CD it's on -- where he threatens to quit and says stuff like, "I don't even like playing the drums!"

Negative comments about Clarke's abilities from fellow band members on this page:

http://die-augenweide.de/byrds/speak/aboutclarke.htm

The Notorious Byrd Brothers, I believe. Before David Crosby was replaced by a horse iirc.

i hate david crosby

that last letter on that page, jesus....

also checked out the new Marty Stuart record mentioned, very good stuff, not outright mimicry but definitely hits that spaced out country rock Byrds vibe very well, some great guitar playing

yeesh, yeah that letter!

people have such weird ideas about drummers — like it's more of a sport than music (see the recent drama over Meg White). Clarke certainly had his limitations, but he was awesome more often than not. It's interesting to have these guys during this period who were basically garage rock drummers being asked to really play beyond themselves. "Eight Miles High," totally — also "Why" ... Clarke pretty much lifts the entire band during the instrumental break.

that said, there's a few flying burrito bros. live things where Clarke is a total mess. (the whole band is a total mess, to be fair)

Speaking of Notorious, this is inessential but fun: "In honor of the passing of the great David Crosby, I offer this album reimagining: an alternate version of The Byrds’ classic psychedelic rock masterpiece The Notorious Byrd Brothers, which presumes David Crosby had not left the band, and is featured as an equal to Roger McGuinn. To do this, we will restructure the album to feature recordings made during the early sessions of the album, which actually featured Crosby."

tylerw otm re: the perception of drummers. I’ll often hear, “Oh, but could ____ have played with ____? Probably not!” as if that’s in any way relevant. Michael Clarke played with who he played with and sounded great with them and made them sound great. What difference does it make if he possibly couldn’t measure up to a hypothetical situation?

I usually like/love rock band drummers such as Ringo and Bill Berry, to name two favorites, but Michael Clarke always felt like where I drew the line. At least he has been replaced as least favorite Byrd by Skip Battin.

"well, everyone knows crosby got replaced by a horse. what this album presupposes is... maybe he didn't”

hahaha

I usually like/love rock band drummers such as Ringo and Bill Berry, to name two favorites, but Michael Clarke always felt like where I drew the line. At least he has been replaced as least favorite Byrd by Skip Battin.

― The Original Human Beat Surrender (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, June 1, 2023 10:56 AM (twenty-three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

i don't understand this at all, esp the "where I draw the line" part (feels like you're sort of slagging Ringo and Berry in a way)? what in particular are you hearing on Byrds records in terms of the drumming?

I was reading Eno’s diary and there’s a mention of listening to tapes that Quine made for him of Byrds rarities.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUHQBmpN76o

what in particular are you hearing on Byrds records in terms of the drumming?

Curious about this myself. Also, I can never remember which album came first -- Turn! Turn! Turn! or Mr. Tambourine Man -- so I often have to look it up: "Is this the one with session players?" I don't hear any qualitative difference. If Clarke was such a shitty (or even just mediocre) drummer, the difference between those two records would be pretty stark.

The Wrecking Crew played on their debut single, but when it came time to record more songs to make their first LP, the band insisted on playing those tracks themselves. (For whatever reason, this rarely seems to get fact-checked whenever news or magazine articles mistakenly claim that the Wrecking Crew played on the whole album - it happened again with multiple outlets after Crosby died.)

...

― birdistheword

Aha! See, no one can even tell the difference! Blaine's a little too splashy on the hi-hat on "Tambourine," and Clarke has a heavier and more convincing groove throughout the rest of the album (especially on "Bells of Rhymney").

The Stuart group definitely nods at Bakersfield and the Dead too. There is a little thing in one video that even references an early Stones album cover.

Kenny Vaughn is a good interview and has had an interesting life and career. There is some interviews he does talking about seeing the Dead in the early 70s in Denver (among other things).

Totally not slagging Ringo, not really slagging Bill Berry, maybe just tweaking him a bit. I just don’t hear anything particularly exciting from Mike Clarke, when I listen, the way I might hear when I focus on, say, Chris Hillman.

“Where I draw the line” was just some kind of rhetorical overstatement that I will somehow never be able to live down now that you have successfully outed me as some kind of Buddy Rich Or Die fanatic.

"well, everyone knows crosby got replaced by a horse. what this album presupposes is... maybe he didn't”

I’m also waiting for y’all to accuse me of slagging on Levon Helm or not appreciating Clem Cattini.

Not a big enough fan of Christopher Mars.

Oh hey, I just discovered the awesome discofied version of “Eight Miles High” on
Flesh and Blood to distract myself while you circle the wagons.

Maybe I should go on a Pink Floyd thread and see what people are saying about Nick Mason.

it's cool sorry if that came off more aggressive than intended

You’re making me sorry, sorry somehow.

Okay, I’ll stop

One of my favourite Byrds covers is Grant McLennan's 'Ballad of Easy Rider'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAcPJfbHQro

Wow, never knew that existed, thanks! I say this and haven’t even clicked yet.

Many xxx-posts...

Surprised no-one posted the bonus track from the Notorious... reissue with the recording of McGuinn and Hillman fighting with Clarke.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsVs9-W0eSQ

Maybe it was already posted upthread? Plus it’s definitely David not Roger- and he even mentions a horse!

The Troggs did it better. Crosby might be an asshole but he's right about the drumming on this track.

Lol about The Troggs.

Fairport cover Gene Clark:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvWxOxme9Lw

They sure had good taste.

^love this one!

Think I first heard it as part of some BBC sessions.

Which that is, I now see in the fine print.

Yeah, I've just got it on the original Heyday, which is like 10-12 performances from the Beeb; the 2002 reissue is 20 tracks, and the 4-disc box is still around, and yeah they had taste for sure. Don't think they did any more Byrds-related material, unless some of the same trad.
The Hillmen s/t doesn't have any Chris originals, but they do a couple of Dylan songs, like this one--whole reissue is here (note inclusion of the Gosdin Brothers, later with Gene, and with Clarence White on their own late 60s The Sound of Goodbye)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8VP7kIXKDY

I believe Joe Boyd would bring a lot of records over from the US for them to listen to. Also he was involved with the Move in some way and they covered the Byrds, Moby Grape and Love.

The Move covered all of those?!
Gosdin Brothers' Sounds (plural) of Goodbye has Byrds appeal, as well it might:

The GOSDIN BROTHERS - Sounds Of Goodbye . Us . 1968 .
(Folk Rock) (Country Rock)
Vern Gosdin - Vocals , Guitar , Songwriter
Rex Gosdin - Vocals , Guitar , Songwriter
&
Gib Guilbeau - Rhythm Guitar , Fiddle , Songwriter
Gene Parsons - Drums , Harmonica
Clarence White - Lead Guitar , Rhythm Guitar , Dobro , Songwriter
Wayne Moore - Bass , Rhythm Guitar , Songwriter
Gary S. Paxton - Producer , Songwriter
Kenny Johnson - Guitar
Dennis Payne - Guitar , Bass

I was led to it by young Kelsey Waldon's cover of this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdDHi6gIdKw

The Move covered all of those?!

"So You Want to Be a Rock and Roll Star" (and "Goin' Back" and "Eight Miles High"!), "Hey Grandma" and "Stephanie Knows Who".

Richard Thompson has mentioned this before (and it may be in his recent memoir), but when Fairport Convention covered their favorite contemporary songwriters, they purposely chose songs that weren't so well-known at the time. As a result, they produced just as many definitive or near-definitive versions of Dylan songs as the Byrds: "I'll Keep It With Mine," "Million Dollar Bash," "Percy's Song," "Dear Landlord," "Si Tu Dois Partir" (aka "If You Gotta Go, Go Now"), etc.

Whenever I listen to Another Side of Bob Dylan, I almost feel like I'm listening to a demo session for the Byrds - four of the best songs became great Byrds recordings. Only "Chimes of Freedom" was equaled by Dylan simply because it's a great, epic set of lyrics and so much of it was cut out by the Byrds.

Don't think they did any more Byrds-related material

this is beautiful, technically a mcguinn/dylan tune

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1qlcBWC0EI

also Iain Matthews did a few Gene Clark songs post-Fairport

Ah! Thanks!

Sandy Denny: vocal; Richard Thompson, Simon Nicol: guitars; Ashley Hutchings: bass; Dave Mattacks: drums.

This was Fairport Convention's encore at the time. Recorded at Sound Techniques in 1969 as part of the Liege and Lief sessions, it was later released on Richard Thompson's collection (Guitar, Vocal), on the Sandy Denny anthologies No More Sad Refrains and A Boxful of Treasures, and as bonus track of the 2003 reissue of Fairport Convention's album Unhalfbricking.

A live version without Sandy was released in 1977 on the Island Records 2LP set Richard Thompson Live! (more or less)

Then you’ll probably enjoy this:

https://500songs.com/podcast/episode-139-eight-miles-high-by-the-byrds/

― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Tuesday, May 30, 2023 4:58 PM (one week ago) bookmarkflaglink

i started this and it seemed great, so i actually ended up going back to the first episode. so now i'm all up in lionel hampton and big joe turner etc but i'm excited to hear this someday