When is acting racist in a song not being racist?

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I borrowed a copy of Hex Endunction Hour Saturday. I'd never heard the Fall before, though I had heard of them from my brother, who really likes them. I have to say I was pretty turned off by some of the lyrics when I understood them. I really had to concentrate to understand some of them. How am I supposed to react to something like "'Your taste for bullshit reveals a lust for home or office/This is the home of the vain /This is the home of the vain /Where are the obligatory niggers?/Hey there fuckface, Hey there fuckface/There are twelve people in the world/The rest are paste"? Is he serious? If he isn't, how does one do that so people don't think you really are a racist or whatever? *scratches head* >:-(

― Erin Caruthers (maneki neko), Sunday, 20 October 2002 21:14 (twenty-three years ago)

That particular lyric has always been a source of noteriety and contention -- the story, as I've heard it, is that Motown, of all labels, was on the verge of signing the Fall, but then heard that song and steered clear. But I've never heard anything more about if the song was written in response to the prospect of being signed or the like...anyone have any more info?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 20 October 2002 21:19 (twenty-three years ago)

I'd say that depends on who's being offended.

― A.V. Alexandre (Keiko), Sunday, 20 October 2002 22:03 (twenty-three years ago)

MES wasted his celebrated e.s.p. skimming vice mag decades before its publication.

(Erin you're supposed to react with a frenzied shopping spree for every fall record you can lay your hands on!!)

― jones (actual), Sunday, 20 October 2002 22:13 (twenty-three years ago)

MOTOWN?!! naaah...

― bob zemko (bob), Monday, 21 October 2002 01:42 (twenty-three years ago)

I think in that particular instance it's pretty obvious that Smith was just trying to offend people and be noticed. It's not as though he was actively suggesting the slaughter or abuse of ethnic/religious minorities. I mean... the most-offending line is followed by "Hey there, fuckface!" I can't take that seriously.

― Ian Johnson (orion), Monday, 21 October 2002 02:05 (twenty-three years ago)

Using the n-word is very offensive. I would hope he had a good reason to use it. It's a very mean word. That word is as offensive in England as it is in the US isn't it? I remember my band-mate, Patrick, telling me that Elvis Costello also used that word once when he was on tour here. I don't think there's ever a reason for for someone to use it,

― Erin Caruthers (maneki neko), Monday, 21 October 2002 02:36 (twenty-three years ago)

Elvis Costello also used that word once when he was on tour here.
Referring to RAY CHARLES ferchrissakes! That story kept me from listening to Costello for ages.

― Nate Patrin, Monday, 21 October 2002 02:38 (twenty-three years ago)

His last seven (eight?) albums have done that for me.

― James Blount (James Blount), Monday, 21 October 2002 03:01 (twenty-three years ago)

who, mark e or elvis c?

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 21 October 2002 03:02 (twenty-three years ago)

Surely that line is having a dig at companies who employ token black (or female) members of staff, to prove they have an equal opportunities policy.

― Jez (Jez), Monday, 21 October 2002 08:21 (twenty-three years ago)

didnt Elvis Costello use the word in 'Oliver's Army' as well? was this racist? i never thought so...when so many black rappers and comedians have used it gratuitously for so long its funny how it can still raise serious eyebrows when used by a white person in any context other than derogatory e.g. sarcastically

the interesting thing is many black rappers and comics always seem to want to run the term into the ground so it shakes off its previous derogatory meaning, but surely this is never going to really happen? so why do they persist?

― blueski, Monday, 21 October 2002 14:03 (twenty-three years ago)

Does it really mean anything anymore?

― dave225 (Dave225), Monday, 21 October 2002 14:05 (twenty-three years ago)

haven't you read *that* thread?

― michael wells (michael w.), Monday, 21 October 2002 14:22 (twenty-three years ago)

Black Flack - White Minority

THINK ABOUT IT

― Jonathan Williams (ex machina), Monday, 21 October 2002 14:35 (twenty-three years ago)

One could argue that Patti Smith's use of the term in "Rock and Roll Nigger" was one way to use it while making it relatively clear that it wasn't being used in THAT way...though people have always misinterpreted her intent, so you can't really argue that point that way. Part of the question here is why we react the way we do to certain words no matter the context, and should we be acting as the thought police when people use these words, no matter their intent?

The Elvis Costello use of the word is qualified by a couple of things: 1) he was very drunk; 2) he was deliberately trying to provoke someone else at the table. Apparently he didn't mean it at all, but can it be justified? No. Will I hold it against him musically? No. We've done the artists' worldview vs. musical output before on these pages, and it's probably not worth debating here again so I'll leave it.

(ps. partly off the topic, but if anyone is interested in more about the issue of race, I'd certainly recommend listening to a few Dick Gregory albums.)

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Monday, 21 October 2002 14:48 (twenty-three years ago)

Wasn't "White Minority" sung by a Mexican?

― Kris (aqueduct), Monday, 21 October 2002 15:23 (twenty-three years ago)

Kris: Wasn't "White Minority" sung by a Mexican?
I think so. Wasn't it Chavo Pederast who did that one?

bob zemko:MOTOWN?!! naaah...
Shouldn't that be Motown-ah...

― Lord Custos Omega (Lord Custos Omega), Monday, 21 October 2002 15:34 (twenty-three years ago)

"he was very drunk;"

surely applies to mark smith as well

― g (graysonlane), Monday, 21 October 2002 16:31 (twenty-three years ago)

What about "Guilty of Being White" by Minor Threat?

― Nate Patrin, Monday, 21 October 2002 17:34 (twenty-three years ago)

Lennon: "Woman is the nigger of the world/think about it/we make them paint their face and dance"
Listner: *slaps forehead. Groans loudly*

― DavidM (DavidM), Monday, 21 October 2002 17:36 (twenty-three years ago)

What about the Slayer cover of "Guilty of Being White"?

― Jonathan Williams (ex machina), Monday, 21 October 2002 17:39 (twenty-three years ago)

A good answer to the title question would be "Rednecks," Randy Newman

TMFTML
http://intonation.blogspot.com

― TMFTML (TMFTML), Monday, 21 October 2002 18:35 (twenty-three years ago)

"Welcome to the Terrordome"?

― James Blount (James Blount), Monday, 21 October 2002 18:41 (twenty-three years ago)

What about the Slayer cover of "Guilty of Being White"?

Also sung by a Mexican, right? Or what is Tom Araya?

― Kris (aqueduct), Monday, 21 October 2002 18:47 (twenty-three years ago)

Somehow I never got the idea that Smith was looking for field hands here.

― Kerry (dymaxia), Monday, 21 October 2002 18:50 (twenty-three years ago)

the use of the word "nigger" is pretty complex, but it is not inherently racist. It depends on who's saying it, in what context, and the power relationships involved.

― Shaky Mo Collier, Monday, 21 October 2002 18:53 (twenty-three years ago)

I've always thought the "one itchy trigger / one less white nigger" line in "Oliver's Army" was trying to make out that the National Front of the day hated white people who "acted black" on whatever level at least as much as they hated black people. I wouldn't argue with that (and would apply it equally to the present-day BNP).

― robin carmody (robin carmody), Tuesday, 22 October 2002 00:09 (twenty-three years ago)

I think it had more to do with the idea of soldiers as "white slaves"

― M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 22 October 2002 00:43 (twenty-three years ago)

fifteen years pass...

i still really have issues with Eyehategod choosing to title one of their songs, well....y'know....especially given how poor the defense of it is.

― fuck the NRA (Neanderthal), Monday, 23 April 2018 01:53 (eight years ago)

This thread suxx

― absorbed carol channing's powers & psyche (morrisp), Monday, 23 April 2018 02:06 (eight years ago)

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