TS: Billie Jean vs. Little Red Corvette

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Just heard both of these songs today and thought hey poll. Both awesome hits of 1983 about promiscuous women and the men who love 'em, etc.

Poll Results

OptionVotes
Billie Jean 60
Little Red Corvette 57


Darin, Tuesday, 16 September 2014 05:55 (three years ago) Permalink

guess i shoulda known
by the way you parked your car
sideways that it wouldn't last

resulting post (rogermexico.), Tuesday, 16 September 2014 05:59 (three years ago) Permalink

In most situations, LRC would get my vote. But Billie Jean omg.

Johnny Fever, Tuesday, 16 September 2014 06:11 (three years ago) Permalink

billie jean is arguably MJ's finest hour

resulting post (rogermexico.), Tuesday, 16 September 2014 06:26 (three years ago) Permalink

This is impossible. I prefer Smooth Criminal to Billie Jean, but LRC is maybe my first or second favourite Prince, but Billie Jean is just stunning and all time and so super-danceable.

It's gotta be Billie Jean really, hasn't it? I mean, you play LRC in a club and people like it but BJ doesn't let anyone leave the dancefloor.

monoprix à dimanche (dog latin), Tuesday, 16 September 2014 09:04 (three years ago) Permalink

I'm interested to know about the relative popularity of these two artists in the '80s. Growing up in the UK, EVERYBODY at school knew Michael Jackson's music, wanted to moon walk, watched the film, played the video game, danced to Thriller at Halloween etc.

Whereas Prince.. well naturally everyone knew who he was, but I don't really remember people knowing his music and personality quite so well. It's not like everyone went crazy for Batdance or anything, and I really discovered his music a lot later via a hits compilation.

Was it because Prince's style was considered a bit too raunchy for school discos? Or is it a matter of geography? Or was MJ just such a big personality that he eclipsed Prince's mad reclusive genius?

monoprix à dimanche (dog latin), Tuesday, 16 September 2014 09:11 (three years ago) Permalink

One of these tracks is 'Billie Jean' and the other isn't. Voting for 'Billie Jean'.

Welcome To (Turrican), Tuesday, 16 September 2014 09:11 (three years ago) Permalink

Was never a fan of Billie Jean, even when I was a four-year old kid with one of my first record albums. It seemed like the least relatable of the singles to me. #challops

how's life, Tuesday, 16 September 2014 10:10 (three years ago) Permalink

Billie Jean is just the definitive MJ to me

Whereas LRC IMO isn't even the best 1999 single

Master of Treacle, Tuesday, 16 September 2014 10:20 (three years ago) Permalink

Prince didn't take off in the UK until Parade; for a while he sold more records there.

guess that bundt gettin eaten (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 16 September 2014 10:59 (three years ago) Permalink

Prince's 80s UK chart performance is as bizarre as he was (Paisley Park the first single from ATWIAD ahead of Raspberry Beret and just a few months after the 1999/LRC re-release being his biggest hit to date).

Purple Rain surely sold more than Parade at the time here tho.

nashwan, Tuesday, 16 September 2014 12:37 (three years ago) Permalink

Whereas LRC IMO isn't even the best 1999 single

I like "1999" and "Let's Pretend We're Married" as much as the next guy, but ...

a guy named Christian White who represents the typical white Christian (Eric H.), Tuesday, 16 September 2014 13:00 (three years ago) Permalink

Billie Jean is great but LRC is top 20 all time material

g simmel, Tuesday, 16 September 2014 14:15 (three years ago) Permalink

I was at a dentist appointment last week and before my hygienist came in, I could hear her singing along with Little Red Corvette while it played on the radio in the other room. She stopped before it got to the "Trojans, and some of them used" line.

how's life, Tuesday, 16 September 2014 14:21 (three years ago) Permalink

I guess that makes it alright

son of a lewd monk (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 16 September 2014 14:38 (three years ago) Permalink

lol :D

I don't really like BJ. LRC for sure.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Tuesday, 16 September 2014 14:48 (three years ago) Permalink

Girl, you got an ass like I never seen
And the ride, I say the ride is so smooth
You must be a limousine

BTW, I voted for Billie Jean

Free Me's Electric Trumpet (Moodles), Tuesday, 16 September 2014 14:57 (three years ago) Permalink

prince > MJ
but
BJ > LRC

marcos, Tuesday, 16 September 2014 15:02 (three years ago) Permalink

"Corvette" and it's not really close, "Billie Jean's" good but has aged in a way that one hasn't. also I like other Thriller songs more

nova, Tuesday, 16 September 2014 15:04 (three years ago) Permalink

I'm much more OK with the idea of LRC being Prince's signature song than BJ being MJ's.

a guy named Christian White who represents the typical white Christian (Eric H.), Tuesday, 16 September 2014 15:19 (three years ago) Permalink

LRC might be Prince's signature song in some universe, but not this one.

Johnny Fever, Tuesday, 16 September 2014 15:22 (three years ago) Permalink

The bassline in Billie Jean is the best thing about either of these records, so that.

DISMISSED AS CHANCE (NotEnough), Tuesday, 16 September 2014 15:41 (three years ago) Permalink

yes, but the bassline on Smooth Criminal is better, as far as I've ever cared and will ever care.

monoprix à dimanche (dog latin), Tuesday, 16 September 2014 15:43 (three years ago) Permalink

Fuck michael jackson LRC all the way for being a much weirder song/single

Οὖτις, Tuesday, 16 September 2014 15:45 (three years ago) Permalink

little red corvette sounds baroque, dated, insular to me, not bad things at all, they are great things since we're talking about prince here, but i am always totally amazed that billie jean still sounds so urgent and modern, one of the very few pop songs that gives me goosebumps every single time.

mattresslessness, Tuesday, 16 September 2014 15:50 (three years ago) Permalink

little red corvette packs all the mysteries of sex into a five-note synth hook

resulting post (rogermexico.), Tuesday, 16 September 2014 15:56 (three years ago) Permalink

I break it down like Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough>I Wanna Be Your Lover, but Little Red Corvette>Billie Jean. (I kind of prefer Wanna Be Startin Somethin on Thriller).
Actually it's more like Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough>nearly everything.

campreverb, Tuesday, 16 September 2014 16:05 (three years ago) Permalink

anytime i hear "wanna be startin somethin" i think of this post:

--Whenever I'm in a convenience store and see Tillamook County Smokers beef jerky, I sing "Tillamook County Smokers" it in my head to the tune of Michael Jackson's "You Wanna Be Starting Something"

― uәʇɹɐƃu!әʍ ˙ƃ ʎәu!Ⴁʍ (Whiney G. Weingarten), Saturday, November 29, 2008 8:14 PM (5 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

marcos, Tuesday, 16 September 2014 16:08 (three years ago) Permalink

yamaha

nxd, Tuesday, 16 September 2014 16:09 (three years ago) Permalink

LRC might be Prince's signature song in some universe, but not this one.

Both artists are bigger than one "signature song," obv. It was mostly a hypothetical way to decide how to vote.

a guy named Christian White who represents the typical white Christian (Eric H.), Tuesday, 16 September 2014 16:13 (three years ago) Permalink

Fuck michael jackson LRC all the way for being a much weirder song/single

― Οὖτις

"Billie Jean" has the creepier bass line, strings, and lyrics by any stretch.

guess that bundt gettin eaten (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 16 September 2014 16:23 (three years ago) Permalink

Billie Jean is creepier because MJ is creepy, but that wasn't what I was getting at. Structurally Billie Jean is quite conventinal - common time rhythm, hook-verse-chorus etc. - as noted it's a dancefloor filler. LRC's drum track is bizarre, it builds up and recedes throughout the song (not a dance track at all), then the Eddie Hazel guitar solo in the middle and in the refrain (a good deal more interesting than BJ's four-note guitar solo bit), then the song more or less stops to give Prince room for some more squealing vocal acrobatics and goofy double-entendres, and then it glides along for another minute-and-a-half with the vocal call and response. This is just a strange way to arrange a hit single, it doesn't bear much resemblance to anything else at the time nor have any real clear precedents.

Οὖτις, Tuesday, 16 September 2014 16:31 (three years ago) Permalink

a good deal more interesting than BJ's four-note guitar solo bit

I'd contest that.

a guy named Christian White who represents the typical white Christian (Eric H.), Tuesday, 16 September 2014 16:36 (three years ago) Permalink

this is actually really hard but in the end i had to give the nod to Prince. you really can't go wrong with either song but have changed the station on MJ's song (not again) and not Price's song.

Bee OK, Wednesday, 17 September 2014 05:15 (three years ago) Permalink

billie jean is so good that even the pepsi version is awesome. on the other hand little red corvette was the first prince song i ever heard and i still find it just as haunting as ever -- all that whispering and squealing, eerie silences, crazy tempo changes, and prince managing to make the line 'girl, you got an ass like i never seen' sound weirdly eloquent. but there really is no wrong answer here.

(The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Wednesday, 17 September 2014 18:23 (three years ago) Permalink

guess i shoulda known
by the way you parked your car
sideways that it wouldn't last

― resulting post (rogermexico.), Tuesday, September 16, 2014 1:59 AM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

sheer giddiness

prince ftw

B.L.A.P. (rip van wanko), Wednesday, 17 September 2014 20:49 (three years ago) Permalink

love both but "billie jean" easily. lrc sounds sluggish smushy and flat in comparison. drums aren't loud enough.

brimstead, Wednesday, 17 September 2014 21:16 (three years ago) Permalink

does billie jean even have chord changes? lrc has a regular chord progressions.. its "strangeness" is due to its shitty diy sound. it's good shitty, though!

brimstead, Wednesday, 17 September 2014 21:19 (three years ago) Permalink

chord progression in LRC is def conventional, but the arrangement and execution are bizarre

Οὖτις, Wednesday, 17 September 2014 21:37 (three years ago) Permalink

does billie jean even have chord changes?

don't forget the pre-chorus!

example (crüt), Wednesday, 17 September 2014 21:51 (three years ago) Permalink

Ha, i actually just remembered the pre-chorus as i was eating lunch and thought to myself "damn, what a jam".

I definitely would've picked LRC ten years ago, another ten years and i'll probably flip again

brimstead, Wednesday, 17 September 2014 23:26 (three years ago) Permalink

We should poll several Prince/MJ pairings:

Bad vs Sign o' the Times
PYT vs Take Me with U

guess that bundt gettin eaten (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 17 September 2014 23:39 (three years ago) Permalink

this is the only one that's even a contest

resulting post (rogermexico.), Thursday, 18 September 2014 00:31 (three years ago) Permalink

despite the fact that i just had a wonderful little moment with my son teaching him to moonwalk and sing the chorus to "Billie Jean," this is so easily forever "Little Red Corvette" for me

some dude, Thursday, 18 September 2014 00:52 (three years ago) Permalink

nothing touches Billie Jean

Now I Am Become Dracula (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Thursday, 18 September 2014 01:40 (three years ago) Permalink

Was out for dinner tonight with some friends and put this question to them. All four of us say LRC.

MaudAddam (cryptosicko), Thursday, 18 September 2014 02:20 (three years ago) Permalink

nothing touches Billie Jean

except for MJ, who then refused to take responsibility

mookieproof, Thursday, 18 September 2014 02:29 (three years ago) Permalink

"Corvette" is awesome wtf is up with you people

nova, Thursday, 18 September 2014 02:33 (three years ago) Permalink

Was out for dinner tonight with some friends and put this question to them. All four of us say LRC.

― MaudAddam (cryptosicko), Wednesday, September 17, 2014 7:20 PM (22 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

the four wisemen

nova, Thursday, 18 September 2014 02:43 (three years ago) Permalink

tbf the other two songs no one gives a shit about are Temperton's

Οὖτις, Thursday, 18 September 2014 20:37 (three years ago) Permalink

i thought Thriller was known for people giving a shit about every song

festival culture (Jordan), Thursday, 18 September 2014 20:38 (three years ago) Permalink

(i give a shit about every non-ballad track)

festival culture (Jordan), Thursday, 18 September 2014 20:39 (three years ago) Permalink

have literally never heard anyone praise Baby Be Mine of Lady in My Life but sure let's hear it

xp

Οὖτις, Thursday, 18 September 2014 20:40 (three years ago) Permalink

'baby be mine' is a fucking jam, i thought that was uncontroversial. like with many of his tunes, i've got even more appreciation for it after working on an instrumental (new orleans brass band) version of it recently. the melodies are pretty crazy (modal?).

festival culture (Jordan), Thursday, 18 September 2014 20:45 (three years ago) Permalink

"Baby Be Mine" is always played on adult R&B and quiet storm.

guess that bundt gettin eaten (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 18 September 2014 20:48 (three years ago) Permalink

"The Lady in My Life" is a quiet storm staple and I've long used it as a litmus test for whose opinions I can take seriously about r&b

The Reverend, Thursday, 18 September 2014 21:10 (three years ago) Permalink

itt Shakey does a great Mr Snrub impersonation

💪😈⚠️ (DJP), Thursday, 18 September 2014 21:15 (three years ago) Permalink

'baby be mine' is a fucking jam

― festival culture (Jordan), Thursday, September 18, 2014 3:45 PM (28 minutes ago)

a guy named Christian White who represents the typical white Christian (Eric H.), Thursday, 18 September 2014 21:15 (three years ago) Permalink

i love "baby be mine" and "lady in my life"

example (crüt), Thursday, 18 September 2014 21:20 (three years ago) Permalink

hey Shakes, Marlon Brando didn't write any of his films

son of a lewd monk (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 18 September 2014 21:25 (three years ago) Permalink

ohh, didn't realize Οὖτις is Shakey.

festival culture (Jordan), Thursday, 18 September 2014 21:30 (three years ago) Permalink

Thread needs Alex in NYC

Sir Lord Baltimora (Myonga Vön Bontee), Thursday, 18 September 2014 21:34 (three years ago) Permalink

Lady In My Life is spectacular

brimstead, Thursday, 18 September 2014 21:51 (three years ago) Permalink

hey Shakes, Marlon Brando didn't write any of his films

do pay attention, old bean

Οὖτις, Thursday, 18 September 2014 22:39 (three years ago) Permalink

I'm unaware of people claiming Marlon Brando was a great screenwriter fwiw

Οὖτις, Thursday, 18 September 2014 22:39 (three years ago) Permalink

Only dud on Thriller is "The Girl Is Mine," and it's only dud because Paul McCartney goes fucking cornball supernova.

Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Thursday, 18 September 2014 22:40 (three years ago) Permalink

but your argument that MJ's work deserves devaluation because he needed Quincy Jones is curious. Few great musicians produced themselves! The Beatles needed George Martin, Bowie needed Visconti, the Heads needed Eno, Madonna needed Patrick Leonard, Janet Jackson needed Jam-Lewis, and so on.

guess that bundt gettin eaten (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 18 September 2014 22:43 (three years ago) Permalink

Right, and no one says "man, Janet Jackson changed music in x way" without mentioning Jam and Lewis. There is a tendency with MJ fanatics/partisans to ascribe all manner of genius-level behavior to him, which is just not accurate, and that is what I was addressing. I don't think he was an amazing producer in his own right. I would say that the Beatles were not amazing producers in their own right either, etc.

Οὖτις, Thursday, 18 September 2014 22:48 (three years ago) Permalink

perhaps in terms of this thread - populated as it is by knowledgeable folks with a more nuanced understanding of how music is made - that's a strawman argument. I was pre-emptively addressing claims that commonly pop up when discussing MJ's "genius" as a musician and the variety of fields involved - singing,songwriting, producing.

Οὖτις, Thursday, 18 September 2014 22:51 (three years ago) Permalink

I don't think anyone here has called MJ a genius or denigrated QJ's contributions. BTW if you wanna hear how a QJ production changed depending on the artist's sensibilities listen to Donna Summer's 1982 eponymous album or George Benson's Give Me The Night. Even when Jackson worked with Teddy Riley on Dangerous the machine funk is harder and more contorted than any known new jack, and Jackson gets the credit.

guess that bundt gettin eaten (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 18 September 2014 22:52 (three years ago) Permalink

yeah, I don't think any sensible person would say that MJ was a production/songwriting/musical genius like stevie wonder or prince.
but at his best, he was quite phenomenal at what he was doing (vocal and live performance, vocal and musical arrangements, some songwriting, production ideas, etc).
there are interviews in which quincy jones said MJ was amazing at finding the right groove for a song.
As a kid I was a fanboy of his (circa Thriller) and I still find OTW and Thriller fantastic. Bad is meh and Dangerous and almost everything afterwards is poor. that said it seems to depend on which album of his you loved as a kid as I've talked with some younger friends who got into him with Dangerous and who still love that album.

AlXTC from Paris, Friday, 19 September 2014 15:25 (three years ago) Permalink

Even when Jackson worked with Teddy Riley on Dangerous the machine funk is harder and more contorted than any known new jack

okay now let's not go overboard

💪😈⚠️ (DJP), Friday, 19 September 2014 15:33 (three years ago) Permalink

I can't think of too many new jack songs as steely as "Dangerous."

a guy named Christian White who represents the typical white Christian (Eric H.), Friday, 19 September 2014 15:40 (three years ago) Permalink

It's like Bell Biv Devoe never existed up in here

💪😈⚠️ (DJP), Friday, 19 September 2014 15:47 (three years ago) Permalink

BBD were on ILX?!

a guy named Christian White who represents the typical white Christian (Eric H.), Friday, 19 September 2014 16:01 (three years ago) Permalink

I think "Jam" is harder than any BBD single I've heard.

guess that bundt gettin eaten (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 19 September 2014 16:14 (three years ago) Permalink

I mean, from a vocal performance standpoint alone ...

a guy named Christian White who represents the typical white Christian (Eric H.), Friday, 19 September 2014 17:11 (three years ago) Permalink

Dangerous is just too long and way too patchy - classic CD bloat

I wonder how people would talk about that period had he trimmed it way down (76 mins ffs)

Master of Treacle, Friday, 19 September 2014 18:01 (three years ago) Permalink

honestly minus "heal the world" and "gone too soon" i'd think dangerous was perfect

emo canon in twee major (BradNelson), Friday, 19 September 2014 23:58 (three years ago) Permalink

I like Prince more, and "Corvette" is probably one of his top 5 singles for me. but "Billie Jean" just never really rated as one of my favorite MJ songs.

― some dude, Thursday, September 18, 2014 4:32 AM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

you know I get the sense our tastes are a little different but we've got a mindmeld going on on certain things. Def. agree

Also it's not "OMG bacon" lol, there's Prince shit I don't like, "Corvette" is just badass & a neat little tune

nova, Saturday, 20 September 2014 03:09 (three years ago) Permalink

Prince's 1982 run is pretty unfwithable imo, three dope albums under three different guises/fronts

nova, Saturday, 20 September 2014 03:21 (three years ago) Permalink

WHY IS THE WOMAN IN LITTLE RED CORVETTE WALKING AROUND WITH A POCKETFUL OF USED RUBBERS THATS REALLY GROSS PRINCE

u2 removal machine (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 30 September 2014 03:08 (three years ago) Permalink

you'd better be drinking ersatz coffee if you are reusing rubbers

GhostTunes on my Pono (Sufjan Grafton), Tuesday, 30 September 2014 05:43 (three years ago) Permalink

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

System, Wednesday, 8 October 2014 00:01 (three years ago) Permalink

I dunno how anyone can listen to "Bad" (the song) and not hear it as a totally desperate, almost comically inept manifestation of masculine insecurity. Everything from that point onward became by turns hamfisted and/or disturbing, whether he was singing about skin color not mattering (hmm gee wonder what's going on there) or fantasizing about fucking Diana Ross. Delivered by a manchild in a military uniform that builds giant statues of himself. Even typing this out makes me lol at the baldly ridiculous (and ultimately very sad and tragic) insanity of this guy's output. He was not a happy guy working through his problems; his catalog is a funhouse mirror of denial, delusion and solipsism. I don't really get how people relate to it.

― Οὖτις, Thursday, September 18, 2014 4:20 PM (2 weeks ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

otm, posts like this are why ilx rules

ET sippin the wig (spazzmatazz), Wednesday, 8 October 2014 03:36 (three years ago) Permalink

seriously why do i have to relate to mj

emo canon in twee major (BradNelson), Wednesday, 8 October 2014 03:39 (three years ago) Permalink

"almost comically inept manifestation of masculine insecurity" vs. "intricate, electric failure of masculinity that is also totally funky, who gives a shit"

emo canon in twee major (BradNelson), Wednesday, 8 October 2014 03:40 (three years ago) Permalink

i agree with you, i love mj's music, but it's pretty disturbing and the sadness is hard to comprehend. this quote from before thriller came out: "Even at home, I'm lonely. I sit in my room sometimes and cry. It's so hard to make friends ... I sometimes walk around the neighborhood at night, just hoping to find someone to talk to. But I just end up coming home."

ET sippin the wig (spazzmatazz), Wednesday, 8 October 2014 03:54 (three years ago) Permalink

*the full scope of its sadness is hard to comprehend

ET sippin the wig (spazzmatazz), Wednesday, 8 October 2014 03:54 (three years ago) Permalink

is Michael Jackson outsider music?

example (crüt), Wednesday, 8 October 2014 05:05 (three years ago) Permalink

absolutely

ET sippin the wig (spazzmatazz), Wednesday, 8 October 2014 05:15 (three years ago) Permalink

I dunno how anyone can listen to "Bad" (the song) and not hear it as a totally desperate, almost comically inept manifestation of masculine insecurity. Everything from that point onward became by turns hamfisted and/or disturbing, whether he was singing about skin color not mattering (hmm gee wonder what's going on there) or fantasizing about fucking Diana Ross. Delivered by a manchild in a military uniform that builds giant statues of himself. Even typing this out makes me lol at the baldly ridiculous (and ultimately very sad and tragic) insanity of this guy's output. He was not a happy guy working through his problems; his catalog is a funhouse mirror of denial, delusion and solipsism. I don't really get how people relate to it.

― Οὖτις, Thursday, September 18, 2014 4:20 PM (2 weeks ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

If the content of his music strikes any kind of chord in you its has to be because on some level it does resonate with you. The lack of filter on his presentation of these themes can be pretty jarring but you can't be looking very far inward if you've never felt comically inept in your posturing masculinity (I mean, that to me is a big part of what makes "Bad" so fun), or found your own conception of race and skin colour disturbing, caught yourself fantasizing about weird or inappropriate sex (maybe not Diana Ross...) and built edifices of yourself in your dreams (ymmv with that one).

I mean of all the ways in which a human being can manifest as outlandishly weird, unhappiness, denial, delusion and solipsism strike me as pretty universal (outsider music is an interesting tag I'd never considered). You may not necessarily be able to relate directly to it, but is it really that much of a stretch to see where it comes from and empathise with it?

tsrobodo, Wednesday, 8 October 2014 11:10 (three years ago) Permalink

voted "Little Red Corvette" I love how the song builds tension, climaxes, and then fades. In truth, I'm way too biased for this poll.

I appreciate "Billie Jean," but I think it mostly relies on the great sound it has. It has that moody/haunting vibe going on throughout the song.

nicky lo-fi, Wednesday, 8 October 2014 12:01 (three years ago) Permalink

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

System, Thursday, 9 October 2014 00:01 (three years ago) Permalink

Wow! Everyone came out for this one, huh?

MaudAddam (cryptosicko), Thursday, 9 October 2014 00:03 (three years ago) Permalink

Clearly songs that generate strong feelings in all of humanity. Impressed with how close this was.

Free Me's Electric Trumpet (Moodles), Thursday, 9 October 2014 00:12 (three years ago) Permalink

Simple: I called my relatives and asked them to vote. Black Panther guards protected them.

guess that bundt gettin eaten (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 9 October 2014 00:13 (three years ago) Permalink

one year passes...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlY0H6PTIrc

wizzz! (amateurist), Friday, 4 December 2015 02:20 (two years ago) Permalink

two years pass...

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