TS: Billie Jean vs. Little Red Corvette

Of course MJ relied on others; I'm not disputing that. I'm disputing the idea of Quincy Jones as the (or even a) main architect of Jackson's successes.

He wrote everything on Bad and from that point forward wrote or co-wrote everything.

yes all of which is terrible

I only brought up the rockist songwriter/producer angle as part of it because people claim he was a genius at both. being a songwriter/producer is not necessary to being a great artist and it never has been. but if we're going to compare his songwriting/production work to others, I wouldn't even put him in the top 10 on that count. Of the stuff he wrote/co-produced "Rock With You" is probably the best. Even allowing that the other two big hits he wrote/co-produced from "Thriller" are up there as well, that's THREE FUCKING SONGS. which is paltry.

yes all of which is terrible

pfffft

I dunno how anyone can listen to "Bad" (the song) and not hear it as a totally desperate, almost comically inept manifestation of masculine insecurity. Everything from that point onward became by turns hamfisted and/or disturbing, whether he was singing about skin color not mattering (hmm gee wonder what's going on there) or fantasizing about fucking Diana Ross. Delivered by a manchild in a military uniform that builds giant statues of himself. Even typing this out makes me lol at the baldly ridiculous (and ultimately very sad and tragic) insanity of this guy's output. He was not a happy guy working through his problems; his catalog is a funhouse mirror of denial, delusion and solipsism. I don't really get how people relate to it.

I can't relate to Michael Jackson lyrically on any level. It doesn't stop me from thinking he's responsible for some solid jamz.

Good to great self-written MJ songs:

Workin' Day and Night
Don't Stop Til You Get Enough
Wanna Be Startin' Something
Billie Jean
Beat It
Leave Me Alone
Smooth Criminal
Who Is It
Remember the Time
Jam
Can't Let Her Get Away
In the Closet
Stranger in Moscow
Morphine

I had to stop cuz there's so many.

*and co-written I should have said.

Also, it helps that because I didn't have MTV until the late nineties he (and Madonna) came to me as a radio artist.

Other people wrote and produced PYT, Thriller and Human Nature (and no one gives a shit about the other songs on the album)

tbf the other two songs no one gives a shit about are Temperton's

i thought Thriller was known for people giving a shit about every song

(i give a shit about every non-ballad track)

have literally never heard anyone praise Baby Be Mine of Lady in My Life but sure let's hear it

xp

'baby be mine' is a fucking jam, i thought that was uncontroversial. like with many of his tunes, i've got even more appreciation for it after working on an instrumental (new orleans brass band) version of it recently. the melodies are pretty crazy (modal?).

"Baby Be Mine" is always played on adult R&B and quiet storm.

"The Lady in My Life" is a quiet storm staple and I've long used it as a litmus test for whose opinions I can take seriously about r&b

itt Shakey does a great Mr Snrub impersonation

'baby be mine' is a fucking jam

― festival culture (Jordan), Thursday, September 18, 2014 3:45 PM (28 minutes ago)

i love "baby be mine" and "lady in my life"

hey Shakes, Marlon Brando didn't write any of his films

ohh, didn't realize Οὖτις is Shakey.

Thread needs Alex in NYC

Lady In My Life is spectacular

hey Shakes, Marlon Brando didn't write any of his films

do pay attention, old bean

I'm unaware of people claiming Marlon Brando was a great screenwriter fwiw

Only dud on Thriller is "The Girl Is Mine," and it's only dud because Paul McCartney goes fucking cornball supernova.

but your argument that MJ's work deserves devaluation because he needed Quincy Jones is curious. Few great musicians produced themselves! The Beatles needed George Martin, Bowie needed Visconti, the Heads needed Eno, Madonna needed Patrick Leonard, Janet Jackson needed Jam-Lewis, and so on.

Right, and no one says "man, Janet Jackson changed music in x way" without mentioning Jam and Lewis. There is a tendency with MJ fanatics/partisans to ascribe all manner of genius-level behavior to him, which is just not accurate, and that is what I was addressing. I don't think he was an amazing producer in his own right. I would say that the Beatles were not amazing producers in their own right either, etc.

perhaps in terms of this thread - populated as it is by knowledgeable folks with a more nuanced understanding of how music is made - that's a strawman argument. I was pre-emptively addressing claims that commonly pop up when discussing MJ's "genius" as a musician and the variety of fields involved - singing,songwriting, producing.

I don't think anyone here has called MJ a genius or denigrated QJ's contributions. BTW if you wanna hear how a QJ production changed depending on the artist's sensibilities listen to Donna Summer's 1982 eponymous album or George Benson's Give Me The Night. Even when Jackson worked with Teddy Riley on Dangerous the machine funk is harder and more contorted than any known new jack, and Jackson gets the credit.

yeah, I don't think any sensible person would say that MJ was a production/songwriting/musical genius like stevie wonder or prince.
but at his best, he was quite phenomenal at what he was doing (vocal and live performance, vocal and musical arrangements, some songwriting, production ideas, etc).
there are interviews in which quincy jones said MJ was amazing at finding the right groove for a song.
As a kid I was a fanboy of his (circa Thriller) and I still find OTW and Thriller fantastic. Bad is meh and Dangerous and almost everything afterwards is poor. that said it seems to depend on which album of his you loved as a kid as I've talked with some younger friends who got into him with Dangerous and who still love that album.

Even when Jackson worked with Teddy Riley on Dangerous the machine funk is harder and more contorted than any known new jack

okay now let's not go overboard

I can't think of too many new jack songs as steely as "Dangerous."

It's like Bell Biv Devoe never existed up in here

BBD were on ILX?!

I think "Jam" is harder than any BBD single I've heard.

I mean, from a vocal performance standpoint alone ...

Dangerous is just too long and way too patchy - classic CD bloat

I wonder how people would talk about that period had he trimmed it way down (76 mins ffs)

honestly minus "heal the world" and "gone too soon" i'd think dangerous was perfect

I like Prince more, and "Corvette" is probably one of his top 5 singles for me. but "Billie Jean" just never really rated as one of my favorite MJ songs.

― some dude, Thursday, September 18, 2014 4:32 AM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

you know I get the sense our tastes are a little different but we've got a mindmeld going on on certain things. Def. agree

Also it's not "OMG bacon" lol, there's Prince shit I don't like, "Corvette" is just badass & a neat little tune

Prince's 1982 run is pretty unfwithable imo, three dope albums under three different guises/fronts

WHY IS THE WOMAN IN LITTLE RED CORVETTE WALKING AROUND WITH A POCKETFUL OF USED RUBBERS THATS REALLY GROSS PRINCE

you'd better be drinking ersatz coffee if you are reusing rubbers

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

I dunno how anyone can listen to "Bad" (the song) and not hear it as a totally desperate, almost comically inept manifestation of masculine insecurity. Everything from that point onward became by turns hamfisted and/or disturbing, whether he was singing about skin color not mattering (hmm gee wonder what's going on there) or fantasizing about fucking Diana Ross. Delivered by a manchild in a military uniform that builds giant statues of himself. Even typing this out makes me lol at the baldly ridiculous (and ultimately very sad and tragic) insanity of this guy's output. He was not a happy guy working through his problems; his catalog is a funhouse mirror of denial, delusion and solipsism. I don't really get how people relate to it.

― Οὖτις, Thursday, September 18, 2014 4:20 PM (2 weeks ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

otm, posts like this are why ilx rules

seriously why do i have to relate to mj

"almost comically inept manifestation of masculine insecurity" vs. "intricate, electric failure of masculinity that is also totally funky, who gives a shit"

i agree with you, i love mj's music, but it's pretty disturbing and the sadness is hard to comprehend. this quote from before thriller came out: "Even at home, I'm lonely. I sit in my room sometimes and cry. It's so hard to make friends ... I sometimes walk around the neighborhood at night, just hoping to find someone to talk to. But I just end up coming home."

*the full scope of its sadness is hard to comprehend

is Michael Jackson outsider music?