has this been discussed before?

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i am just wondering whether there is anything left that can be done. having watched what passes for a 'music show' here in nz ( and it is pretty pathetic trust me, i dont have pay tv and friday nights music tv is a sad pepsi chart thing ), it seems that everything is being / has been covered, rare is the 'new song' and it all just seems to be so much more of the same old same old, trotted out in slightly different ways, with maybe a newish sound or two.
is there anything like originality left? or are we just going to continue re-vamping the past?
what is there left to do? has the human race run out of ideas?
this is a genuine question, i am really starting to wonder what directions there are for future music, and i spose you lot are the most 'qualified' bunch i can think of right now to answer me.

donna (donna), Friday, 25 October 2002 18:36 (twenty-three years ago)

i know there is more than crappy pepsi chart stuff, but i mean 'all over', it does seem to be a repeating pattern now of what is done

donna (donna), Friday, 25 October 2002 18:39 (twenty-three years ago)

People are too concerned with originality. It's very difficult to "invent" a new sound conceptually -- these things rely on a slow process of many cultures and styles pushing and pulling against each other over several years. The "retro" bands that are in now just might find a very comfortable point of self-expression somewhere down the line and become more, er, original, but that has to happen naturally.

Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 25 October 2002 18:45 (twenty-three years ago)

Some quick thoughts since I am at work and no time to be coherent (see Every Thread Ever).

Yes, we are in a new era when it comes to the weight of cultural memory about music that we now have access to.

Maybe we should consicously start easing up on our expectations of constant rapid turnover and artistic revolutions. Accept more continuity for the sake of pacing ourselves (at a societal level).

Even so, I'm convinced there is a great deal that could be done that isn't being done. Also there is still a lot of music that is still new to many many people. That means, the musicians among those people haven't had a chance yet to respond to it, to get ideas from it, etc.

Also, let me say I feel no urgency for something new, since I am still hearing new-to-me music which excites me, even if it is not from the last decade(s), and even if it does not represent a paradigm shift.

Ra-Kist Scientist, Friday, 25 October 2002 18:49 (twenty-three years ago)

I mean, even Brian Wilson, who's considered A True Pop Music Innovator (TM), was working with a style that wasn't especially new -- the Beach Boys were the California bastard of NYC street-corner doo-wop, which dates back to the 1940s, who in turn were very likely influenced by the Ink Spots (from the '30s). Brian Wilson had a classical background, though, and grew up in a different environment, so his mutation of the form was just part of the natural zigzag of 20th century popular music.

Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 25 October 2002 19:03 (twenty-three years ago)

who in turn were

"which in turn was" (sorry, didn't proofread)

Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 25 October 2002 19:04 (twenty-three years ago)

donna- you started off by telling us abt this 'new' music show on TV and then went on from that to say something like: there isn't much originality and i think its a wrong thing to do since TV is incapable of doing music well apart from some good docummentaries made by ppl who really love the music.

again, searching for new sounds i suppose is something that has been accelerated since the invention of the record. also live music has suffered. Imagine the orchestra trying to make the best of shitty accoustics when there shiny and lovely recordings of the same piece. or a rock band trying to reproduce the brilliant recorded preformances night after night on tour (whose venues might be ill equipped to dealing with their 'revolutionary' sound).

I think there are many things to accomplish. when i met mark s we talked abt Xenakis and i told him how uninteresting techno was in comparison (didn't jody do a thread on stockhausen?). here was Xenakis, who had shitty machines but had the compostional ideas and on the other sides a lot of the techno crowd who have some nice gear but poor ideas (not all of them: this is not an attack on the whole techno thingy OK and the aims of techno and classical ppl were diff), maybe too restrained by form. so i think that's one area where there are problems that might be worked through.

there's much much more that i think about but maybe for another time.

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Friday, 25 October 2002 19:06 (twenty-three years ago)

i'm pessimistic that there will be what you could call a 'new sound' resulting in a MOVEMENT of sorts in the style of punk and acid house - said this before but i'll say it again and again until i'm proved wrong, though i dont seem to think i will be

blueski, Friday, 25 October 2002 19:23 (twenty-three years ago)

well if you thought you'd be proved wrong would you say it?

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Friday, 25 October 2002 19:25 (twenty-three years ago)

that is what i am getting at blueski, i am wondering if there is no more left in us to produce a new 'movement'. i realise my wording is very open to interpretation, sorry, not very coherent either today.
yes music grows and develops from what has gone before yet lately it seems nothing 'new' is happening at all, it is more and more of the same thing. this is what led me to wonder if there IS anything new for us to explore.
which of course is a silly sort of thought-line since until it is 'found' we dont know do we?
but i hope someone gets what i mean?

donna (donna), Friday, 25 October 2002 19:55 (twenty-three years ago)

that is what i am getting at blueski, i am wondering if there is no more left in us to produce a new 'movement'. i realise my wording is very open to interpretation, sorry, not very coherent either today.
yes music grows and develops from what has gone before yet lately it seems nothing 'new' is happening at all, it is more and more of the same thing. this is what led me to wonder if there IS anything new for us to explore.

Of course there is. There always is. It might feel like stagnation if you're experiencing it in real time, but there's a lot happening right now -- pop culture develops as things that are slightly new eventually become more pervasive and affect the way the old things are now made (see: disco's influence on the Stones in '78). People will look back in 20 years and recognize the late '90s/noughties as its own era, with specific styles and sounds.

Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 25 October 2002 20:09 (twenty-three years ago)

I can't relate to the concern about a new music movement of some sort. I don't see where that produces better music, and it doesn't seem like a very satisfactory way to achieve social change.

Ra-kist Scientist, Friday, 25 October 2002 20:10 (twenty-three years ago)

Some people think that Cuban pop/popular music has been doing very new things, with widespread social ramifications, in the past ten years or so. I haven't been able to get excited about most of it myself. (Search under "timba.")

Ra-kist Scientist, Friday, 25 October 2002 20:15 (twenty-three years ago)

I always say the same things on these is anything new threads.

Ra-kist Scientist, Friday, 25 October 2002 20:16 (twenty-three years ago)

i wouldnt look to it specifically to produce social change, but something like the era of 'swing' seems to me to express / paint a picture of certain aspects of society at that time, as does punk, the early rap and other forms which differed greatly from the norm when they emerged.
i got a bit 'down' about it all when i saw clip after clip last night of samey-stuff which was all also so retro it was really depressing.
yes it does feel stagnant jbr.

donna (donna), Friday, 25 October 2002 20:22 (twenty-three years ago)

disco's

Actually, disco is an interesting example, because it was around for YEARS before it even had a name. It infiltrated the culture before it was given a name, and once it was its own meme, it filtered right back into the culture.

There was disco in some of the late '60s Motown stuff; in stringy easy listening pop like the Fifth Dimension; in Brazilian samba; in vibey cop-show jazz-funk. People hailed "disco" as something new, but it didn't spring up from nowhere -- no music ever does. If you want new sounds, you can easily find them; they're all around you, waiting to be scooped up and mashed together.

Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 25 October 2002 20:23 (twenty-three years ago)

''i got a bit 'down' about it all when i saw clip after clip last night of samey-stuff which was all also so retro it was really depressing.''

Jeez...depressed after watching telly. like all of us! which is why i don't watch it anymore.

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Friday, 25 October 2002 20:26 (twenty-three years ago)

OK i still watch a comedy or two.

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Friday, 25 October 2002 20:28 (twenty-three years ago)

Donna, do you feel deprived of a generational musical identity? Or something of that sort?

Ra-kist Scientist, Friday, 25 October 2002 20:30 (twenty-three years ago)

i got a bit 'down' about it all when i saw clip after clip last night of samey-stuff which was all also so retro it was really depressing.

Somebody brought up a good point recently in ILX/NYLPM/rockblogsville. Your ears are trained to seek out the familiar, so rather than focusing on the "retro" elements of a band's sound, it might help to think in terms of what the band is doing differently -- and it is doing something differently, if a group of distinct individuals have formed to fuse their personalities into a musical unit.

Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 25 October 2002 20:32 (twenty-three years ago)

kind of, yes, rockist but i dont care so much about that as i do about feeling so 'bla' about music at the moment.
you make a good point jbr, and i will try to be a bit more positive when i listen / watch next time. but even though i may actually LIKE some of the stuff i still find it a bit sad that there doesnt seem to be anyone not following the little markers that say ' now sing / move / dress / play like this and we guarantee success'
as i write this and read back on the thread i can see that i am just complaining about feeling bored and cynical.

donna (donna), Friday, 25 October 2002 20:46 (twenty-three years ago)

When was the last mass cultural movement based on new music? maybe the rave culture. Has there been anything else since then? I'm thinking that music is getting really spread out, and there is less unifying elements, and therefore less cultural movements.

A Nairn (moretap), Friday, 25 October 2002 20:54 (twenty-three years ago)

I think that Jody is OTM, new music can only develop organically. The question is that how it is possible when the media is always hunting down for novelty instead allowing for music to grow at its own pace. Alternative music in the 90's became popular without anticipation. I guess my point is that any new music movement is ever going to have mass popularity will have to begin at the grassroots level. I myself can't wait because I'm tired of reading about electroclash or neo-garage artists who are IMHO a pale version of their predecessors.

Micheline Gros-Jean (Micheline), Friday, 25 October 2002 21:54 (twenty-three years ago)

Despite globalization, a lot of music is still relatively limited to national, or at least regional, boundaries. So, to use the example I used above, Cuba might be in the throes of some exciting new music movement, but it's still not well known in the primarily Anglophone world, even among Latinos actually.

I'm sure that some other countries or regions may be experiencing a more clearly recognizable "new sound" of some sort than many of us who post here see around us in our world.

Maybe this is irrelevant to your question, since it doesn't do you much good if you don't find out about it, or if it's not interesting to you. But the fact that something new is actually happening somewhere on the globe could provide hope that something new will happen closer to home.

Acid House/Techno, etc. were well-positioned to go international, thanks to the relative unimportance of lyrics.

Ra-kist Scientist, Friday, 25 October 2002 22:08 (twenty-three years ago)

Having just had my mind blown by this book on memetics, I feel justified in saying that culture has more to do with imitation (and imitating things incorrectly especially) than with anything as vague and idealized as "originality" - that being said, there's tons more to come and there's tons going on right now. It has NOT all been done before and will NEVER all be done.

Things to look forward to (that may be happening already):
1 Computer sound-software becoming so cheap that it's taken for granted and poorer communities will gain access to them, allowing the creative elements in those communities to come up with new shit. I'm tired of academic computer nerds making boring music because they like computers - I wanna see someone who doesn't give a fuck about a computer because its a 20-year old piece of shit and using it to do something completely unheard of (a la Kool Herc and his turntables).
2) The spread of the DIY ethic/meme to the developing world. A slight variation on the phenomenon described above.
3) The return/revival/reinvention of ever older forms. The blues is still with us. Classical English folk is still with us (in heavy metal, for ex.) Garage is the current flavor of the month. What else will be dug up - doowop? gogo? ragtime? 70s am singer songwriters? These will be smashed together with something else and re-filtered through new technology, so who knows what will result.
4) Speaking of which - new technology always results in new styles of communication (eg, music as well), and at the current rate of development, some as yet unheard-of sound generation system is inevitable.

Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 25 October 2002 22:39 (twenty-three years ago)

The developing world stuff is important, I think. The fact of strange foreign rhythms starting to appear frequently in the pop charts (Missy, Holly) is just the start - the spread of the technology, the breaking down of barriers, the greater mixing and blending of styles and ideas will have all sorts of unpredictable effects, I think.

haha Mixmag has a cover CD this month labelled "Trance 'n' Bass"; I think this is not the next big thing.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Saturday, 26 October 2002 11:14 (twenty-three years ago)

Martin - seriously though was it trance-flavoured drum & bass or something else?

Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Saturday, 26 October 2002 11:46 (twenty-three years ago)

It's D&B with some trancey sounding chords and strings here and there, yes. John B (who also mixes it), Teebee, Klute, Cause4Concern and others. I like it, but it's not a scene or new subgenre, I don't think, just one of the many steals from the rest of the world that you'll find in D&B - you can find examples of influence from across the dance spectrum if you look for them, but I'm not sure that sticking them together gets us very far, other than producing a pretty coherent mix. This stuff seems more to do with the soulful D&B subscene, in a way, I think, not a separate movement.

haha it says in the small print on the back of the CD "Next month: country & bass" which I would look forward to, if it were real, and I assume it isn't.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Saturday, 26 October 2002 12:09 (twenty-three years ago)

Yeah I figured it would be as much, and you're right that it's really just a sub-sub-set of melodic d&b. I'd recommend the "Hidden Rooms 03" comp from last year (lots of Klute, Teebee, Lexis etc.) which really nails the hypnotic tech-ish sound that a lot of this stuff strives for.

Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Saturday, 26 October 2002 12:49 (twenty-three years ago)

And I'd recommend Teebee last album, Through They Eyes Of A Scorpion, which is not only thisstyle, but may be my favourite D&B album ever.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Saturday, 26 October 2002 13:24 (twenty-three years ago)


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