what would your ideal mc NEVER RHYME ABOUT AGAIN?

"i drink this particular type/brand of alcoholci beverage"

Also, the whole forty-ounce thing is tired.

Welcome to my world.

"I have found The Answer. His name is Jesus. All will be alright if you just love Him. " etc.etc.etc.

ME ME ME!

they are inescaple you say? b-but i haven't heard a note from them.

A lot of the duller stuff Jess characterizes above rests on the assumption that for hip-hop vocals to be good the lyrics must work well on paper and be able to "stand alone" (another philosophical fiction that needs addressing). That's why thinking about hip-hop from within a rock framework results in (in this context) justified frustration, and that's also why it's probably not the best framework from within which to approach the subject!

To put it more succinctly, if you can see hip-hop more as *vocals* and less as *lyrics* then I think you'll start to get a lot more out of it. Sorry for the partial hijack, Jess.

I think Clarke is my new hero. :-) Is the use of vocals in rock less driving but equally emotionally fluid?

It's easy to see why people approach it this way, what with all the talk of street poetry and the obvious front-and-center emphasis on the vocals in pretty much all hip-hop ever. I think people just have a hard time dealing with the notion that [WARNING: PERHAPS ILL-ADVISED MENTION OF "PROGRESS" AHEAD] what was once *actually* a form of street poetry or what have you is morphing and changing (in the serpentine and confusing ways these things tend to happen) into something else, something where the words themselves just aren't as important.

A lot of this (admittledly jesting) talk of what should be eradicated from hip-hop made me think: what would it be like if MCs actually took your advice? "Oh, god, you're right; what have we been doing? This bling shit really doesn't enrich anybody's spirit, does it? Let's be more conscious and caring in our rhymes." I just don't see that happening. What I *do* see is a time when something like _Illmatic_ is seen as a quaint artifact of a long-passed era -- I mean, it already sort of seems like that, doesn't it? -- an era when MCs and producers had seemingly very different priorities and aims, both musically and extra-musically.

So...banality is accepted. To assume that nothing substantial can originate from hip hop lyrics is a very...interesting position to take.

"That's why thinking about hip-hop from within a rock framework results in (in this context) justified frustration, and that's also why it's probably not the best framework from within which to approach the subject!"

Are you suggesting that rock is allowed some emotional resonance or philosophical truth as where hip hop exists only for the phonetical appeal? And when it does attempt to meet rock's criteria (whatever that is) why do you say it fails? I'll assume that you weren't suggesting this and give you a chance to clarify this statement.

I find it odd that a lot of people on this board seem to be advocating a new banality. Is lyricism in hip hop dead? A lot of people around here seem to indicate that lyricism never had a place in hip hop. I'd be interested to hear how many of you agree with this and what defense you have for this, because this seems to be the subtext to what a lot of ILM boarders say about hip-hop. and i think that it's a very limited perspective of hip-hop's history and its potential.

And jess, could you clarify your point about MF Doom?

The lyrics-are-meaningless wing of ILM apply their analyses to *everything* whether it's hip-hop, rock, or whatever; there's no special pleading. I think there's a valid point - vocal rhythm is as important a component as the words the voices are using but let's face it they ARE using actual words, it's not just rhythmic dada, and those words are open to criticism. Whether that criticism can be general (i.e. "bling-bling lyrics are banal") and not rooted in specific performances is something I have a lot more problems with - which is partly why I started the other thread.

i think the word i'm struggling with on this whole thread is 'about', what is *something* 'about', this seems a peculiar word to me, is this is about representation again?

If a piece of music uses words, it is legitimate to talk about the meaning of those words when you criticise the piece. That's my bottom line, I suppose.

I understand this point, but Clarke did seem to be contrasting it against a "rock framework" so I just wanted some clarification about why hip hop fails within this framework.

And, in regards to your other comment: I do think that there vocal rhythm is an essential element of hip hop lyrics. But there's also another function that hip hop lyricist have traditionally played, and it's more in the tradition of the griot and the educator. I don't think that it's acurate or healthy to say that hip hop has simply moved beyond that. While there's obviously a lot of meaningless shit said by both mainstream and "underground" hip hop, it seems premature to dismiss this particular function (although it does seem rather fashionable as of late).

Obviously, there are several criteria employed when judging hip hop lyrics, and I would argee with Tom that what the lyrics are *about* (as defined by tom) is an acceptable criteria. I think that it's rather cynical to say that it isn't.

Also, I'm not going to list what I would like to hear from an MC. There's a lot. And there are a lot who consistently deliver.

i see your point. i was referring to one particular aspect of lyricism, and should have phrased my comments accordingly.

Is the griot/educator tradition really a lasting or strong one within hip-hop, rather than an idea pushed very strongly by a small subset of (very charismatic and skilled) MCs which has faded somewhat as their careers have?

No questions
No instructions
No introductions

I.e.:
No more "Is Cleveland in the house?"
No more "Throw your hands in the ayer, and wave 'em like your name is Roy Ayers"
No more "Scream!"
No more "Ho!"
Don't tell audiences to do something and then get mad when they don't.
Come up with new ways to work the crowd and get audience interraction.
No more intros on CDs.
Start the fucking CD already.
Start your fucking show already.
Don't tell me who you are.
Say who you are in a song.
Banter is filler unless you're rapping.
ABR: Always Be Rapping.
And another thing: MCs with DAT Tapes must die immediately. Get a DJ, a band, or go a capella.

Thankyou,

Pete

I think I see where you're going with this, and I'll back off my language a little more. Amongst these board members, the rhythmic and phonetic aspect of lyricism seems privilidged over what the song is actually *about* (accepting your prior definition of the word "about"). And I would argue that there are many emcees througout the history of hip hop who've had significant thematic content. And I would also say (more in response to what Clarke said) that hip hop's lyrical themes and subjects are just as substantial and meaningful as that of rock. I can provide a list (if you want one) later this afternoon. Lunch calls!

I very much doubt Clarke was arguing otherwise -- certainly I'm not, but the unspoken subtext is that they both can be equally flaky and banal judged on their own. What I think Clarke and I are both, to an extent and not necessarily an equal one, saying that sole judging of a track's quality on the basis of lyrical content, theme, etc. is a mug's game and a half. It is not what we're engaging with the music for -- and if we are, then read the lyric sheet and forget the disc itself. Like Tom noted elsewhere just now, if a video is viewed then it's a combination of audio and visual input that informs one's judgment rather than simply 'just' the song, though what is valued in that combination more is up to the individual interpreter. But reducing it further -- a musical piece with lyrics can't be judged/enjoyed solely on the basis of the lyrics but the whole, though what an individual listener will choose to judge/appreciate/respond to more will vary. Hopefully that clarifies matters -- you are right that some of us do indeed privilege sound over, for lack of a better word, 'content,' but I think you do the board a disservice by saying we're all like that.

Tom, point taken re: they're actually saying words that mean something (that's why my BS detector perked up). However, I don't think something like: lyrics are worthless BUT that rhythm and cadence are hugely important. That would be denouncing one nicely cordoned-off quantifiable (haha arguably, but whatever) dimension of vocalizing -- lyrics -- in favor of another nicely cordoned-off one -- rhythm. Just as a lyric sheet won't convince me that I'll like a vocalist, nor will a rhythm chart, no matter how specific it is w/r/t attacks, accents, beat divisions, etc. The point is not that lyrics should be ignored *in favor of* something else, but rather that no one thing about vocalizing can be singled out as *the* "meaning-bearing" or vital aspect. Unsatisfying at first sight, perhaps, but I think it's more philosophically honest, and can ultimately lead to more productive criticism that sits better than the endless debates about how meaningless bling-bling lyrics are.

The thematic content of hip hop lyrics has been used to entertain (i.e. the storytellers), educate (PE, KRS) and have also been used as a tool to indict hip-hop (2 Live Crew). I think to take this potential away from hip-hop is robbing it of some of its power. And, to dip from the conceptual to the personal, hip-hop has functioned as a teacher for myself and many others. I believe that you could make an argument that over the past 20 years, the thematic content of hip hop lyrics has been more influential on a cultural level than any other form of lyrics, poetry, or prose. American mainstream media, and many of the genre’s participants and fans, have (rightly or not) operated under the assumption that hip-hop lyrics speak for a certain segment of society (and I’m not segregating this strictly based on race). Maybe this is just a byproduct of the general relevancy of hip hop culture, but regardless of the origin of investment, it does mean that they still warrant close scrutiny. So…fuck Tom Petty.

Quick thought here -- 'rock' lyrics (and 'country' and 'reggae' and whatever) can and do all fulfill these functions, at least as their listeners choose to let them as much as their authors want to mean them. Not trying to contradict your overall point (especially since hip-hop is the focus of the thread), but just to acknowledge how there actually isn't any particular reason why hip-hop should be singled out for these qualities in implicit opposition to other musical styles. But perhaps we're circuitously saying the same thing at base.

Wow, I don't think that's EVER HAPPENED BEFORE on ILM!</sarcasticbastard>

Actually, I'd like to hear this one more. Usually it's the first line in a rap-related joke.

Fuck all that shit, it's so ILM...

haha, count bass d says there's a new kmd album coming out!

Jess, you're an even bigger asshole than I'd taken you for. grow the fuck up.

dan perry to thread!

My favorite answer ever!

jess has been like this for what...six, seven months.

Another word of wisdom for MCs: If nobody knows you, or knows the words, rapping clearly (as in enunciating, making sure the back can hear) might be advisable.

Dan I., I must insist that you make this identical post in every thread where an argument has broken out. However if you are unwilling or unable I'll do it myself with your blessing.

obThread, only backwards: I wish rappers would do more bragging about how successful their back catalogue is: "This is lecture number two, 'My Philosophy'/Number one, was 'Poetry' you know it's me" (BDP) "I sang on 'Dowhatchalike,' and if you missed it/I'm the one that said 'Just grab 'em in the biscuits'" (DU) etc etc

anything said in the last 24 was under the influence of nyquil and a 102 fever, but i stand by it, mostly.

Nurses wanna talk shit? I pop clips.

Yeah, this could work.

i'd like a moritorium called on wilt chamberlin like lists of sexual exploits. blow by blow depictions of singular episodes of freakiness would still be ok though

hm....

Oh and y'all nurses can't fuck with me all y'all nurses lovin me...