thread to dis hyped releases that you don't get/don't like/wanna complain about

I've never argued that ILM as a whole is closed to outside sounds. I wouldn't be here if that were the case. What I do notice, however, is that the most vocal poptimists are almost systematically uninterested in anything that falls outside of their purview (short, accessible, earwormy songs, preferably conducive to a political analysis), barring a woke signifier or two. There's nothing wrong with that per se – but to argue that poptimism hasn't become a hegemonic (albeit less harmful) discourse like rockism (which was popist to begin with, just with more guitars) over the past decade or so is galling from the perspective of marginalized genres.

Like Nabozo said, I too was quite young when rockism was the norm online, so there may be a generational component to this misunderstanding. I get the sense that older ILMers focus more on its causes whereas younger ones are more interested in its effects.

tbh maybe they just like pop. the battle might not be pop vs art music (so many grey areas anyway) so much as a neurological one - omnivorous self-romanticising autistic monsters (hai) vs...well...normies people with more refined and well-adjusted tastes

"that's some incel bullshit!" yeah probably is I'm sorry

I tend to think that too (not quite in those terms, though), but it just seems so self-defeating. It cements the status quo (which takes us back to the politics of it).

the neurologics of music listening are fascinating to me and I think we shouldn't be afraid to discuss them

that said it's amazing what can be done for someone's hitherto-conservative music taste with a bit of exposure. "oh wow how had I not heard this before?!" it's because you weren't looking hard enough

enter ilx, I guess

"oh wow how had I not heard this before?!" it's because you weren't looking hard enough

Words to blather about music by.

ilx of course should aspire to more than simply regurgitating what *insert popular e-zine here* thinks is the hot and happening thing in popular music nowadays, and to ilx's credit it usually achieves this, if you know what threads to click

"oh wow how had I not heard this before?!" it's because you weren't looking hard enough

― imago

i guess i'm not looking hard enough because i say this to myself at least once a month

i can't even remotely relate to the "rockism vs. poptimism" debate. i'm old and out of touch with what people like. nobody i know is even aware of anything i like except for beyonce. i mean like seriously i think if i were to bring up janelle monae to most of the people i know i'd get blank looks.

in the battle between rockism and poptimism, back baby shark.

Treeship if you're seriously trying to claim that the current state of music journalism is the result of critical positions thrashed out 10-20 years ago, and not a result of the complete destruction of the economic models of both journalism *and* the music industry over that period, then you fundamentally don't understand anything you're handwringing over.

I did not claim this. I made the milder claim that overall in the critical discourse we’ve moved away from the prejudices that characterized rockism (privileging the individual artist over collective efforts/ authenticity over artifice/ albums over singles / guitars over synthesizers / “timelessness” over ephemerality). Whatever the reasons poptimism is dominant

I mean, you're exemplary when it comes to trawling for lesser known (euphemism) music, rush, so it makes sense that you shouldn't relate to this binary bullshit at all. Btw, I'm all for that baby shark line, whether it's a Kafka riff or not.

Agreed, Treeship (unsurprisingly).

Thanking Tim F for a morning of reading Ewing--I do miss his voice. This one's great: https://pitchfork.com/features/poptimist/6772-poptimist-11/. (Has mark s ever read Harold Innis??)

There's probably some ironic point to be made about that column's Dave Marsh quote about Morrissey and the specific way his rep has changed over time. But I agree that the overly or simplistically politicized mode of pop criticism* that pomenitul and treeship are talking about shouldn't really be called poptimism. I'll allow this could be an age gap thing: I subscribed to Rolling Stone and then Spin as a kid--maybe you were reading Popular at that age. Still, you guys are smart readers and beating on this distorted image of poptimism, especially on ILM, makes it hard to engage.

* I guess? There's no evidence in those posts, and without any links or names I don't know what dire shit you guys are referring to--or even if you're talking about ILM? Who even are "the most vocal poptimists" on this board in 2018?? As Matt DC basically said, I wonder to what extent you're attacking engagement-driven clickbait rather than a serious critical position. Maybe we should call it poptimization?

ok ignore that post and just watch/listen to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPanudF7X6I

I don’t think I’m attacking anyone, I’m just wondering whether “poptimism” is still relevant as a critical lens. These things are often circumstantial—no one says they’re a “New Critic” anymore even if they still draw on some of the ideas from that school.

i'll read some of those tom ewing columns.

maybe go do that? you really aren't making much sense, Matt DC otm

Due to its ubiquitousness, pop music doesn't need intelligent critics to lavish their optimism upon it in 2018, other genres do. It's time to move on: less pop music, more of everything else, thanks.

I'll leave it at that, as I've think I've already hit my quota of variations on a single theme for the week.

there may be a generational component to this misunderstanding. I get the sense that older ILMers focus more on its causes whereas younger ones are more interested in its effects.

Fwiw, I'm old enough to have been on the first ILM thread and to have written 30 pages about one Avril Lavigne song in a grad course in 2003 and I think a lot of what you're saying is OTM.

(I'm also pretty sure "poptimism" meant something more than just a synonym for "open-mindedness" btw; that would have been completely uninteresting. It was a critical stance that had actual principles, which can be debated. There are a lot of ideas in the Tom Ewing 'interview with Jessica Simpson': about download/mp3 culture, about 'authentic' vs 'manufactured and fake' and why that is a false binary, about whether the artist's intention and investment does or should matter to the listener or the critic, about whether formal innovation and progress matter, about the relationship of culture to politics and economics and whether that matters, about the aesthetic attractiveness of three-minute songs about romance. To Tom's credit, these were bold and thoughtful ideas, which can be argued.)

sund4r otm

quite pleased that the most vigorous ilm discussion in weeks has served to hide all my various 'hurr x is shit' broadsides in the jump

If I may return this thread to that territory — D0ja C4t seems to me like, idk, the musical equivalent of clickbait or “meme-making,” or something... I don’t get at all why ppl on here (with good taste) hear in her.

The moo song is horrendous

bitch i’m a cow

:P

lol

has anyone made a Moo'd Up mashup yet?

these were bold and thoughtful ideas

Very much agreed. This kind of poptimism, narrowly defined, has greatly influenced my own understanding of music over the years. But since rockism manifestly lost the war, poptimism – in no small part due to the term's suggestive versatility – is no longer 'anti-establishment' in 2018. Quite the contrary, which is why it deserves a bit of a ruffling.

What I do notice, however, is that the most vocal poptimists are almost systematically uninterested in anything that falls outside of their purview (short, accessible, earwormy songs, preferably conducive to a political analysis), barring a woke signifier or two.

it's hard to concentrate on complex songs when you are made of straw

Between the idea
And the reality…

If I may return this thread to that territory — D0ja C4t seems to me like, idk, the musical equivalent of clickbait or “meme-making,” or something... I don’t get at all why ppl on here (with good taste) hear in her.

― underqualified backing vocalist (morrisp), Monday, December 10, 2018 10:46 AM (twenty-four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lots of people on ILM were raving about the Doja Cat album months before "Moo" dropped.

for what it's worth I love poptimism being widespread because it means I can hang out with non-music critics, tell them what music I like, and have less chance of being sneered at. it's a very useful thing in my life

'Moo' is vaguely amusing, just 3 minutes and 30 seconds too long.

xxp I know! That’s partly what I’m talking about

I don't believe for a second that any of you actually enjoy the 1975. In my mind, it's all an opportunist move to distance yourself from the exaggeratedly earnest middle-brow herd whose disapproval of this album is just a little bit too easy for you to stomach. Can't let them think they've actually got it, can you?

now we're talking

(I have not heard the band)

ah shit, the jig is up. gonna go to the 1975 thread and tell them that 'operation: annoy ninthyoung' has failed and they can stop listening to their favorite band now.

I'm amazed it took this long for the first 1975 challop to emerge in this thread.

oh i'm not annoyed. I actually conquored my aversions evoked by that facial expression the singer does in press photos and found the music ok

nah I hated it

sorry that you're embarrassed

an opportunist move to distance yourself from the exaggeratedly earnest middle-brow herd whose disapproval of this album is just a little bit too easy for you to stomach. Can't let them think they've actually got it, can you?

Is this a list of the track titles? I can't parse it as an argument

I saw The 1975 back in 2013 when they first came out and it sounded precisely like Hot Hot Heat and a pretty singer yelping "she's got a boyfriend anyway / she's got a boyfriend anyway" and I just figured they were throw-back-to-2003-landfill-indie and would be heard as such. Surprise! it's 2018 and they hybridized that landfill-indie sound with the DNTEL begat Postal Service begat Owl City sound and... I'm glad the music consuming population have figured out what they like and are saying so!

Me, I really appreciate the graphic design on their albums, excellent font choices.

I think you might want to listen to "Mine" or "Lostmyhead" or "Tootimetootime..." to see how that's a woefully inadequate description of Their Thing

"sex" is the only 1975 song that sounds like "sex" otherwise they've barely made anything resembling landfill indie

people keep comparing the album to owl city which is just beyond me

unless you'd like to point me to the owl city record with the garage track on it

i understand they are unbelievably easy to dislike but generally want more precision about it thanks

xp I'll take any excuse to link this: https://youtu.be/ECN7C1QQyqk

an opportunist move to distance yourself from the exaggeratedly earnest middle-brow herd whose disapproval of this album is just a little bit too easy for you to stomach. Can't let them think they've actually got it, can you?

Is this a list of the track titles? I can't parse it as an argument

― I Accept the Word of Santa (Noodle Vague), Monday, December 10, 2018 4:37 PM (twelve minutes ago)

Think the bit in italics is the title of the next album.