Help the aged

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Why is it most rock/pop artists have a 5 or 10 year burst of creativity and then burn out? Most writers can reach their peak when they are well into their autumnal years. Johnny Cash's "Solitary man" and Leonard Cohen's "The Future" (which I think is even better than his previous stuff)are great records by elderly people and which ponder on being old. Does anyone know any others?

― Michael Bourke, Friday, 25 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

I don't know about Cohen, but I think it's interesting that though Cash is an exception, his career didn't exactly extend continuously from his initial burst of creativity to the present. If I was on the right page last night, even his own promotional materials make a point of saying how he is in the middle of his third career (as a musician).

― Josh, Friday, 25 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

Tom Waits. 'Bone Machine'.

― tarden, Friday, 25 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

yeh, i was going to suggest tom waits.

― gareth, Friday, 25 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

Stereolab keep gettin gbette rand better. But maybe after next year ,when they are 11 ....

― Mike Hanley, Friday, 25 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

Didn't Merle Haggard just release an album that everybody's raving about? Anybody here heard it?

― Steven James, Friday, 25 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

Must say the wimmin's thread's having some kind of effect on me... I'm trying to think of some old grand dames who sell records not despite their age but because of it.... not comin up with any.

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 25 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

dylan's time out of mind.

― Geoff, Friday, 25 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

Preponderance of 'rootsy' examples so far...

― Josh, Friday, 25 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

Tracer: Emmylou Harris. She's had a resurgence over the last little while and has crossed over to a more mainstream crowd. It's also arguable that Patti Smith had a bit of a burst there with Gone Again, though I'm not so sure about Peace&Noise or Gung Ho (good, but not as).

― Sean Carruthers, Friday, 25 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

Dolly Parton is i think in her late 40s which is not ancient but she is doing this jaw droppingly great bluegrass thing right now.

― Anthony Easton, Friday, 25 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

Stereolab are *not* getting better and better.

I suppose Mark Hollis when he returned (not *that* old, but certainly in his 40s).

― Robin Carmody, Friday, 25 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

As Far as I am conerned, life of Stereolab begins at Dots and Loops. THeir early stuff is tedious and unambitious.

― Mike Hanley, Friday, 25 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

_Switched On_, _Mars Audiac Quintet_, _Amorphous Body Study Center_ and _Emperor Tomato Ketchup_ tedious and ambitious?

Truly, contradiction, thy name is Mike Hanley ...

― Robin Carmody, Friday, 25 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

Tedious and *unambitious*, that should have been.

― Robin Carmody, Friday, 25 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

Two clarifications:
Dolly Parton is 55.
Not mentioning the greatness that is Transient Random Noise-Bursts With Announcements is...criminal.

― Sean Carruthers, Friday, 25 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

Hell's teeth - I agree with Robin;). I like Stereolab up to Dot's n' Loops, although I think there's lots of wheelspinning both before and after that little turkey. I wouldn't call them ambitious - they seem to have spent a helluva lot of time perfecting first a (fails to avoid Kraut cliche) *motorik drone*, followed by *pretty drone*, then the step change to godawful *marimba n' bleeps*. I like the motorik drone.

Off to pub. Have a nice weekend.

― Dr. C, Friday, 25 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

Ah, you're being too harsh, Dr C. I have usually agreed with you apart from the Skylarking business. My only real animosity on this board (held both ways) is with Tim Hopkins.

Stereolab were indeed at their best when they were "unambitious". I still like _Switched On_ far more than I thought I would at this remove.

― Robin Carmody, Friday, 25 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

the tyde trashmonk a quiet revolution primal scream kevin rowland

― paul, Friday, 25 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

By the way, I've got to give credit to Johnny Dowd. He didn't even get STARTED in the music biz until he was almost 50.

― Sean Carruthers, Friday, 25 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

big johnny dowd fan.

johnny cash is still the coolest though.

trashmonk is old but still good. how about lawrence from felt? saint etienne? primal scream? someitmes, I think the older onees are the better ones.

― paul, Friday, 25 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

Yo La Tengo have generally been improving with age. Since they formed in 1984 though we can't yet know whether this trend will continue.

― Josh, Friday, 25 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

the invisible circus soundtrack is really good josh, it's got yo la tengo doing can and trashmonk......with other tracks by the upsetters.

works well as an album. trashmonk blow me away.

― paul, Friday, 25 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

Robin, I hold no animosity towards you, although I disagree with some of your views. Please don't speak for me. To e-mail, if you want.

― Tim, Friday, 25 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

Never heard it myself but wasn't that last 'Iggy Pop' album supposed to involve a certain amount of reflection on aging, whilst touted as 'not terrible'. Any props?

― Stevo, Friday, 25 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

AMG has this to say about Iggy's Avenue B: "...It's stilted, embarrassing, and awkward, never once finding the right note, no matter if Iggy is crooning or reciting his silly lyrics. He doesn't seem entirely comfortable with the experiment, either. The only time he comes to life is on a good, straight-ahead cover of Johnny Kidd & the Pirate's "Shakin' All Over." True, it's a selection that dates him somewhat, but he sounds more relaxed, mature, and dignified here than he does on the rest of Avenue B, leaving no doubt what direction he should pursue for the next album..." Not exactly a rousing burst of applause.

― Sean Carruthers, Friday, 25 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

'avenue b' has a few good soundbites - quoted in most reviews - but it isnt great and i sold it after wanting to love it - especially after that WIRE interview - now will one of you finally answer me - is 'zombie birdhouse' any good ?

― geordie racer, Friday, 25 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

I saw Johnny Dowd on Halloween in Toronto opening for The Sadies, who blew his ass off the stage. So much for the old'uns.

― Dave M., Friday, 25 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

the tyde guys annoy me, they were in some dreadful band then noticed pavement were all the rage so they formed further(mediocrity on parade) and now they see the country-pop bandwagon forming and go on to the tyde making a record that is exceedingly dull, his voice is likely the least malleable instrument ever. trashmonk's record was a disaster except for the song 'a girl i used to know' which i thought was lovely. i agree with mark hollis, and chris knox just recorded what i consider his best solo record and he is like 49 or something.

― keith, Friday, 25 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

Gotta agree with you, Michael, about 'The Future' -- a really great album. He doesn't release too many these days, but when he does, they're usually magnificent. 'Bone Machine' by Tom Waits was a great record for such an old fellow.

Primal Scream must be almost in their forties, which is quite old for a record as good as 'Xtrmtr'.

Mark E. Smith maybe? Nick Cave's still giving it a go in middle age. Captain Beefheart did some good stuff at a fairly advanced age. Ummm... Lou Reed possibly. Scott Walker? Not too sure about 'Tilt'.

Robert Wyatt definitely. 'Shleep' is a masterpiece.

― Johnathan, Friday, 25 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

Zombie Birdhouse was the last great Iggy Pop record, and that was in eighty, errm, three? The last 50+ percent of his career has been mediocre at best, regardless of whether any of it "ponders on being old". Not that I've actually heard his last LP, but I don't need to *hear* it to know it was awful (see also: Lou Reed).

Oh, and I'd nominate Mark Smith, Nick Cave and Robert Wyatt too. Though I'm not sure I'd describe any of them as "elderly". If we're going to include middle aged, how about Tom Ze... Arto Lindsay...

― I.M.Belong, Friday, 25 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

what about sonic boom and jason pierce.

I have to disagree with you about the tyde and especially about trashmonk. if you have the album, sit down and listen to all change.

it's fantastic.

― paul, Friday, 25 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

and of course, kevin shields.

― paul, Friday, 25 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

Yes I like MAQ ABSS and ETK, I was being very extreme in saying I dont like anything before dots an dloops. But I am just irked becasue I have known others who also only love Stereolab's most unhuman, dronelike, and dull early works. Not to say that I dont like their early work, I just think their recent stuff BLOWS IT OUT OF THE WATER. I mean, I think Dots and Loops is one of my favourite albums of the last decade. Its so listenable, so rich in layers , so lush in melody, rhythms, such beautiful computery sounds...I want to make love to that record.

― Mike Hanley, Friday, 25 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

unfortunately i have to disagree here, and say that, for me, dots & loops was the beginning of stereolabs decline. up to that point i thought they were as perfect a band as there ever could be, from super electric through to flouresences (sp?)

i liked the idea of the dots&loops and post d&l stuff, but it bored me in practice. thankfully, when playing live, they still play a fair pit of pre-97 stuff, and patches of the post-97 stuff isn't bad live i guess

― gareth, Saturday, 26 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

Why has nobody mentioned MADONNA yet? Especially those who claim their lives were changed by the 'wimmin's thread'!

― tarden, Saturday, 26 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

Why has nobody mentioned MADONNA yet?

Perhaps because her recent work isn't that good - though it would be improved considerably if her vocals were removed.

― David, Saturday, 26 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

Well, Radiohead records are ruined by the vocals, and people are willing to cut them some slack, so why not Madonna?

― tarden, Saturday, 26 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

Hey, what about Golden Earring? "One more ray-dar love gone..."!!!

― tarden, Saturday, 26 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

1. If Yo La Tengo have been improving with age, I'm glad I didn't see them at a coastal festival in 1985. They were turgid enough in 2001.

2. The only real animal I hold in this board is with Tim Hopkins. It's held both ways. Once a week, he and I get together in a field - well, a paddock - and hold a pony. He holds the muzzle - with strength, but never brutality - and I pull the tail. Then we go our separate ways again. He doesn't like to talk about it. Nor does Tim.

― the pinefox, Saturday, 26 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

Robin, I was JOKING. See the smiley thing in my post?

― Dr. C, Saturday, 26 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

But you, Pinefox, you love to talk about it. No matter how many times I make new friends you always end up tagging along and spoiling everything by telling them about the pony. Stop it!

― Tim, Saturday, 26 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

actually, i've always thought that on dots and loops they perfected the stereolab sound and had no where to go after that. dots and loops is a classic.

but cheers for them to keep on going.

forgot madonna and prince and micheal jackson and chuck d. all have committed some crimes agaisnt music but not really that bad.

― paul, Saturday, 26 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

I just got a Limahl album.

― Mike Hanley, Saturday, 26 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

Saw Derek Bailey (now in his early seventies) at 'All Tomorrow's Parties' playing a totally hardcore improv set to a reasonably large crowd of bemused/surprised/horrified but pleasingly appreciative 'young people' , one of whom came up to me afterwards and asked "who the FUCK was that?" Of course I wanted to say "Thurston Moore's granddad" but I set him straight even though this geezer was wearing a bleedin 'Badly Drawn Boy bloody hat. Now I'm sure that the weekend's good vibes and 'high spirits' ensured a greater open-mindedness in the audience, but I still came away inspired by Bailey's lack of compromise, and by the way that his highly abstract music could, given the right circumstances, hit the spot with people young enough to be his grandchildren.

― Andrew L, Sunday, 27 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

Well as for women artists who came into their own at a more advanced age, how about Bonnie Rait and Tina Turner?

― Kim, Sunday, 27 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

tina still rocks. bellrays are a punk rock ilk and tina turner. though, no ilk written song like 'i worship you'..............

― paul, Sunday, 27 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

Fab call on Derek Bailey! Slightly distorting the question, somewhat - the age question seems to occur the other way round in jazz, i.e. how come the people pushing the envelope are the same ones as 30 years ago, viz. Bailey, Parker, Brotzmann, Cecil Taylor, AMM, David S Ware, Keith Tippett - even Zorn, who's been around to my knowledge since about '74 - whereas nearly everyone who's come up since are dull retroactives or initial radicals who rapidly subside into uncomfortable compromise (Byron, Douglas, Pine). Consider Courtney P's cowardice in his Invisible Jukebox feature in the Wire a couple of years back - he'd love to play hardcore free more often, "but you have to think of airplay and pull back." Christ, man! You've got one life - use it to express what you want to express! I saw Gil Evans, aged 65, at the Royal Festival Hall in '78 - still way ahead of everything else, down to proto- electronica. But maybe this rant belongs elsewhere.

― Marcello Carlin, Sunday, 27 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

Don't want to de-rail this thread, but Marcello's post begs an answer... 'Younger' Generation who play free - Mats Gustafsson and Jim O'Rourke (improv alb together on Incus), Alan Licht, Stefan Jarowzyn, Simon Fell, Matthew Shipp, Thurston Moore, Borbetamagus (though they've been around for years), Ken Vandermark, Rob Mazurek/Chicago Underground Duo/Isotope 217, Jeff Parker from Tortoise playing with Fred Anderson and Hamid Drake, Susie Ibarra (student of Milford Graves), Nels Cline etc. etc. Guess the big difference is that (to a greater or lesser extent) these people stand outside of the 'jazz tradition' - esp. the version of jazz history promoted by the Marsalis/Crouch/Burns/Lincoln Centre gatekeepers - and instead come from a rock/hardcore/avant/post-rock background.

― Andrew L, Monday, 28 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

so tina turner's 'what's love got to do with it' is better than her days with ike? hardly.

and bonnie raitt was the david gray of her time.

― keith, Monday, 28 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

Right on Andrew! Still, that's the first time I've heard anyone describe Thurston Moore as "younger" than anything in here.

― tarden, Monday, 28 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

All worthy people, and all handsomely represented in my collection - not to mention the fact that I frequently used to get pissed with Jaworzyk in the old Scala days - but aren't they all great stylists rather than envelope pushers? Perhaps the perception of the music - given that the greatest appreciation is now coming from a different audience - is the major differential factor together with the general background of the musicians (though Sauter & Dietrich are scarcely spring chickens) - but I don't see that, good as they are, these guys aren't doing anything that wasn't being done - albeit in a different context - 30 years ago.

Good "Fire Music" primer by David Keenan in the new Wire, by the way - definitely on the money - but somehow I'm more in agreement with Mark S and what he says in his LJCO review (not a CD, of course - a "Document"!).

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 29 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

Blimey, is that out already? Where I said Free Improv was an epiphenomenon of Prog? Duck-and-cover time for Mark S, I theenk.

There's an issue still not being dealt with, inc., about WHY rock-pop may not age well (comp.with jazz/blues/avant garde). I don't buy that it can't, except (obviously) empirically.

If I wanted to be sentimental, which I sometimes do, I might however argue that ILM itself is the coming-to-awareness, for the no-longer- perfectly-young Spirit of Rock (y'know, "Rock"), of its own History. At least, compared to Uncut.

― mark s, Tuesday, 29 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

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