An odd definition of hip-hop

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I was talking to my romantic tormentor last night about music and we got into a discussion of hip-hop. I said that I used to listen to lots of it, and she was very skeptical, so I rattled off a bunch of names (like Public Enemy, Ice-T, Brand Nubian) and she says: "That's rap, that's not hip-hop." And finally she tells me: "Hip-hop is Bobby Brown and [similar artists whose names I can't remember." What a funny definition of hip-hop. She seemed to take it to mean a softer, poppier sound.

― Rockist Scientist, Sunday, 15 December 2002 21:42 (twenty-three years ago)

"That's rap, that's not hip-hop."

"That's not rock, that's roll."

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 15 December 2002 21:49 (twenty-three years ago)

Hey, that's her prerogative!

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Sunday, 15 December 2002 22:18 (twenty-three years ago)

rap is something people do when making hip hop, or some other style of dance music - so sez my Guide To Clearing Up All This Nonsensical Misplaced Genre Terminology

― stevem (blueski), Sunday, 15 December 2002 22:19 (twenty-three years ago)

oh god tracer

― bob zemko (bob), Sunday, 15 December 2002 22:28 (twenty-three years ago)

"Hip-hop is Bobby Brown"

No it bloody well isn't. She's wrong.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Sunday, 15 December 2002 22:44 (twenty-three years ago)

he does rap tho, heh

"too hot to handle too cold to hold
they are the ghostbusters and they're in control
had em throwin parties for a bunch of children, while all the while slim was under the building
so they packed up regrouped got a grip came equipped
grabbed their proton packs on their backs and then split
found out about Vigo the master of evil
tryna battle my boys? thats not legal!"

― stevem (blueski), Sunday, 15 December 2002 22:57 (twenty-three years ago)

Hip Hop is funkier, more musical rap. Rap is Hip-Hop but with an emphasis on the lyrics. You can have instrumental rap but there is no such thing as instrumental Hip-Hop.

― Kim Deal, Monday, 16 December 2002 00:21 (twenty-three years ago)

Sort've like that square/rectangle equation.

Rap is Hip-Hop, but Hip-Hop is not always Rap...........or something.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 16 December 2002 00:35 (twenty-three years ago)

I had a rap session with a guy who made hip hop once, we talked about alternative rock, and shared opinions on IDM

― Tom Millar (Millar), Monday, 16 December 2002 00:39 (twenty-three years ago)

I said that I used to listen to lots of it, and she was very skeptical, so I rattled off a bunch of names (like Public Enemy, Ice-T, Brand Nubian) and she says: "That's rap, that's not hip-hop." And finally she tells me: "Hip-hop is Bobby Brown and [similar artists whose names I can't remember."

Actually, I think both of you are sort of right. Bobby Brown's "Rub You the Right Way," which combined traditional melody and singing with rap beats, was called "new jack swing" when it came out. Subsequently rap was absorbed into a larger culture, that came to be called "hip-hop."

As a simpler, mathematic formula: rap is now a subset of hip-hop.

― j.lu (j.lu), Monday, 16 December 2002 00:57 (twenty-three years ago)

Hip Hop is funkier, more musical rap. Rap is Hip-Hop but with an emphasis on the lyrics. You can have instrumental rap but there is no such thing as instrumental Hip-Hop.

No, almost but not quite, and no. Hip-hop is a culture AND a musical style; rap is a skill within hip-hop but can also serve as a litotes for hip-hop. The third sentence is the wrong way round.

Subsequently rap was absorbed into a larger culture, that came to be called "hip-hop." As a simpler, mathematic formula: rap is now a subset of hip-hop.

No, and no. Hip-hop culture predates the vocal style that came to be called "rap," although rapping itself can be linked back through Jamaican toasting and back through soul music, through jazz vocalese, and ultimately to the griot traditions of West Africa, and so therefore predates "hip-hop" itself. But the timeline is off; new jack swing was a short-lived subset of R&B that utilized rapping and hip-hop beats, and rap has ALWAYS been a subset of hip-hop.

And, Rockist Scientist, your R.T. is way off.

― Matt Cibula, Monday, 16 December 2002 03:50 (twenty-three years ago)

"Rub You the Right Way" was recorded by Johnny "muh-muh-my my" Gill, who replaced Bobby Brown in New Edition. The last big non-Janet Jam/Lewis hit?

― James Blount (James Blount), Monday, 16 December 2002 03:59 (twenty-three years ago)

Oh wait, I forgot Jordan Knight's "Give It to You" which is almost the equal of "Like I Love U" (this from guys who were the Neptunes fifteen years before the Neptunes were the Neptunes)

― James Blount (James Blount), Monday, 16 December 2002 04:01 (twenty-three years ago)

"Rap" trains yore brane onto the words, and the fact of them, and the way someone vocalizes them. "Rap" insists on the voice of a person. When I'm talking with my friends and I want them to understand that, you know, a record is real bad-ass I'll say "rap" because it sounds fiercer and more uncompromising. "mind over matter / mouth in motion / can't deny it cause I'll never be quiet" (When I talk to my parents I usually call it "hip hop") (btw I never use these words to describe Bobby Brown but it sounds as if R.T. is using them in roughly the same way)

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Monday, 16 December 2002 05:58 (twenty-three years ago)

"The last big non-Janet Jam/Lewis hit? "

You're forgetting Mya's awesome "Free".

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Monday, 16 December 2002 08:46 (twenty-three years ago)

I read this and thought "duh!"

But then I realize there's plenty of hip-hop which isn't rap (DJ Shadow, Invisbl Skratch Piklz etc.) and rap which isn't hip-hop eg. rapping on pop / house / nu-metal / UK Garage records.

The two really are starting to come apart.

― phil jones (interstar), Monday, 16 December 2002 11:44 (twenty-three years ago)

this is all totally wrong to me - like i said, hip hop is a GENRE, as is r n'b and soul, and any artist can rap but still be classed within any of those genres (or others of course) - maybe its another UK/US thing (i dont understand why MTV has a Best Rap Video AND Best Hip Hop Video at its Awards for instance) but as far as i'm concerned rap is a method not a genre

― stevem (blueski), Monday, 16 December 2002 13:29 (twenty-three years ago)

Unless you find a way to rap with instruments, instrumental rap would be, say, 3:22 of silence.

― Orange, Monday, 16 December 2002 16:45 (twenty-three years ago)

when somebody says "i like rap music" to stevem and Orange they're like "I don't even know what that is, fool!"

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Monday, 16 December 2002 17:15 (twenty-three years ago)

I can't believe this thread has gone on this long without this immortal KRS-One quote:

"Rap is something you do, hip-hop is something you live."

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 16 December 2002 17:39 (twenty-three years ago)

And what are the seven pillars of Hip-Hop, again?

― Rockist Scientist, Monday, 16 December 2002 17:54 (twenty-three years ago)

Lust, Gluttony, Sloth, Avarice, Wrath, Envy, and Pride.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 16 December 2002 18:30 (twenty-three years ago)

And phat beatz, yo!

I guess that makes it 8 pillars.

― hstencil, Monday, 16 December 2002 18:36 (twenty-three years ago)

NOBODY says they like rap music in the UK

― stevem (blueski), Monday, 16 December 2002 19:10 (twenty-three years ago)

That's because UK rap sucks. (C'mon, you left the door wide open, I had to go through!)

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 16 December 2002 19:14 (twenty-three years ago)

rap:hip-hop::guitar:rock

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 16 December 2002 20:14 (twenty-three years ago)

I think Matt's got it right...

Oh, and I think the Streets counts as some good quality hip hop.

― cybele, Tuesday, 17 December 2002 00:56 (twenty-three years ago)

where the UK is concerned...

― cybele, Tuesday, 17 December 2002 00:57 (twenty-three years ago)

I was under the impression that "rap" is a music associated with the hip hop culture....
Rap = talk-singing rhymes over samples.
Hip-hop = Rap music...and break-dancing, rope-gold, Adidas with no laces, Kangol, Fubu.

― Lord Custos Omega (Lord Custos Omega), Wednesday, 18 December 2002 04:50 (twenty-three years ago)

Eminem: rap.
DJ Shadow: hip-hop.
PE/DMC/NWA: hip-hop/rap.
There is no instrumental rap, that's like beer without the beer. There is instrumental hip-hop, bacause hip-hop doesn't need lyrics to embody all that is necessary to marry it to the whole breaking/graf/DJing "thang".

Sez I.

― Charlie (Charlie), Wednesday, 18 December 2002 06:05 (twenty-three years ago)

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