The Britpop Salvage Company, Established 2001

No, no and thrice no! Away with it all! Go and listen to Georges Brassens and Victor Jara, you revivalist pigs, rather than wasting more attention on roast beef rubbish that didn't deserve it the first time round!

Hey, this prompts a question -- Victor Jara, then. I know he was Chilean, that that charming fellow Pinochet decided life would be better with him off the planet, and that Simple Minds dedicated the song "Street Fighting Years" to him (please don't ask me *how* I know that last one). Any further thoughts/info/suggestions?

Oi you, Mr Momus, it's only to make me feel better about the stuff I bought when I was 15. I'd like to think that the music I bought, listened to and indeed loved back then wasn't all rubbish. Or was it?

No, it wasn't rubbish. Momus is just viciously jealous of Jarvis Cocker.

Of course, the main salvaging feature of Britpop is Pulp and pre- departure Suede, but Oasis and Blur have their moments. The rest of the lot are awful though, ESPECIALLY the ones with girls in them. Elastica and Sleeper, you know I'm talking about you.

But how could this be?!? "Connection" was ace.

Wait, you forgot Dubstar.

In the flush of youth (?), I founded the Oasis, Suede and Pulp mailing lists (or at least the original ones) in 1995, and almost took over the Blur one as well when it was going through another server crisis. And as has been mentioned elsewhere, much to Nicole's mortification, I still think Menswear had a certain something. There was plenty of good fun to be had -- but I think I'm glad I lived here and not there.

When I first saw "Britpop" on the front of Melody Maker I had the feeling things were slipping(although they were probably over before that, NWONW anyone?). I'd agree with Ally, Pulp were the only great band to come out of it. Elastica, Supergrass, Oasis and Blur had their moments too. I really cant see the appeal of Menswear though. The reason most people detest Britpop is because of the after-effects rather than the music itself. Britpop is to blame for Travis, Stereophonics, Toploader and Coldplay being the big indie bands in the U.K. at the moment.

Nevermind Victor Jara, who the hell is Georges Brassens?

http://home.acceleration.net/williamb/brassens-new/ brassens.html provides that info for you. Hadn't heard of him myself until now.

Although I've certainly taken shit for it, I must admit that I like Catherine Wheel's Chrome an awful lot. Big, surging alterna-rock hooks that sometimes give me chills, but with just a touch of shoegazey goodness to make it close to my heart. Am I the only one here who will admit to a fondness for the Wheel? Hell, do they even count as Britpop...?

I used to dig Adam and Eve, Clarke, but I sort of stopped listening to it. I recall hearing "shoegaze" mumbled around them, don't know how apt that is by the end of their career though.

Yeah, I'm not sure either, Josh. Actually, Chrome is the only album of theirs I've ever heard. I so often go for breadth rather than depth (since I sort of have to pick one, having a limited budget) when I buy music, and plus I'd heard kinda bad stuff about their later work... I guess I didn't want to spoil my fondness for Chrome. I've heard their debut is a stunner, though, and much more shoegaze- influenced than anything else they've done.

Ten Songs To Salvage (Alphabetical Ordure)

The Auteurs - "Unsolved Child Murder"
Blur - "End Of A Century"
Bubonique - "Oi! Copper!"
Elastica - "Connection"
McAlmont And Butler - "Yes"
My Life Story - "Angel"
Pulp - "Mile End" (tho as has been said Pulp=redeeming feature generally)
Saint Etienne - "Mario's Cafe"
Sleeper - "What Do I Do Now?"
Supergrass - "Alright"

So there.

do st etienne count as britpop?

Generally no, but "Mario's Cafe" is a pop tune about hanging around cafes in North London and it is at the very least a suspiciously close cousin.

Oh, be more charitable to Blur. If you want to understand why Britpop was the dynamic force that it was when it started, listen to Modern Life Is Rubbish. One of those records that invented a genre, yet still transcended the genre. Combines a T.Rex sort of swagger with a Kinks sort of pensiveness with a gratuitous nasty MBV guitar noise. It's the album I play for People Who Hate Blur when I want to change their minds, and invariably, the response is something along the lines of "Wow, this is really different to what I was expecting..."

You may, however, get a big carpet under which to sweep all the rest of the bands, *especially* Pulp and Oasis. Never been a fan of Elastica (though I rather respect Justine as a person- weird that) or Sleeper or Shed 7 or Supergrass or Cast and oh god, I even *own* a Menswe@r album, though I admit I only paid £1 for it, and I only bought it for the pictures, and that fabulous Roxy Music cover that they do. Sigh.

They all used to come round my house, Jarvis, Justine, Brett, Preppy Miss Cracknell... Where are they now, thoughtless wretches, now their forebear is old and infirm? Don't give me the time of day now, that's what. Never write, never call, never visit. Even if I am in Tokyo, a little visit would be nice. Instead I have to sit in the Cafe Bombay in Daikanyama, as I did today, listening to a St Etienne Best Of compilation and deciding it was all insufferable (apart perhaps from 'Only Love Can Break Your Heart'). (Grumbles inaubibly into his ear trumpet)

I am delighted to say that my tape of Momus' "Timelord" is backed with my tape of My Life Story's "Mornington Crescent" and thus for me the two albums are FOREVER LINKED. Actually it works thematically too - the one supposedly romantic but with a cold and cynical heart, the other vice versa.

Hmmm, St.Etienne = Brit-Hop? ;-)

I've thankfully never had to deal with the music's *context*, so I've never had any reason to stop loving the great stuff - Pulp, Elastica, Blur, Supergrass's 1st album, Oasis' 2nd, Suede's 3rd, Manic Street Preachers' Everything Must Go, they're all great. I even still like my Kula Shaker album.

The music's context put me off at the time more than the music actually deserved, but listening to a lot of it now - even the stuff I liked - it's really not that great. Suede in particular verge on the awful. The Elastica album has suffered by now slotting into the same mid-price racks as the stuff it imitates - context probably the best way to appreciate that band. Distance improves Blur a little. Oasis I hardly count as Britpop now, ditto Kula Shaker (see other thread for Britpop/Britrock distinction). Pulp, thankfully, are Pulp - I don't even dislike the His'n'Hers production that much.

I think it should be noted that a lot of the bands mentioned didn't actually come out of Britpop. Sure, they found mainstream acceptance there, but Pulp, Suede and Blur were all producing excellent records long before Chris Evans got hold of them and decided to create a new 'movement'. Pulp, who everyone's championing here, had produced loads of excellent records before Common People happened and launched them into the limelight. Also, Suede's albums from the Britpop and post-Britpop eras (Coming Up and Head Music) are far inferior to their earlier work (Suede and Dog Man Star), perhaps because of the departure of Bernard Butler, but perhaps also because of the Britpop influence. Is there anyone who actually listens to CD2 of Sci-Fi Lullabies?

More worrying were the genuine Britpop bands - the ones that didn't really define the era but jumped on the proverbial bandwagon. Shed Seven are an obvious example, but we also have Sleeper, Menswear, Echobelly, Northern Uproar and so on. Towards the end of the whole debacle, A&R folk were actively seeking Oasis-alikes to sign, in much the same way as we have record companies manufacturing Steps-alikes today.

It's intriguing that, perhaps with the exception of Oasis, many of the bands who will be best-remembered for their contributions to Britpop were not the product of it but were in fact unwittingly sucked into it.

I was going to mention actually that it's amusing that the best Britpop band formed in 1981. But I think the influence was two-way - an exciting context, the knowledge that people might be listening (and Britpop-as-a-'movement' I'd date from '93 or so, pre-Evans and pre-Charts) helped key existing bands raise their game as well as spawning mostly/all inferior imitators. Pulp, for instance, did indeed make terrific records before Different Class, but what makes DC special is that it's the sound of a band reaching out to the big audience it thinks is out there and trying to get something across. The audience/ambition feedback loop which makes crossover-pop so exciting sometimes. Mind you this same feedback loop produced the atrocious Dog Man Star, so.

And Britpop also caused existing bands to warp in horrible ways, let's not forget - the Boo Radleys and Lush, for instance.

Different Class was indeed marketed in such a way that it was designed to reach out in the way you mention too, which was interesting. You're right - I think Britpop really began back in the early nineties (perhaps at the point that Suede released their first single and were proclaimed best band in the world by the NME - like that never happens!), but didn't achieve widespread success until around 1995ish thanks to Chris Evans and a few other high-profile but less annoying broadcasters/writers. Ironic, then, that Chris Evans and co actually killed the genre - I remember him publicly criticising Pulp on his show because they didn't want to play Disco 2000.

I love 'Dog Man Star', btw, though it has little of Britpop about it. It's one of the most tremendously overblown records: the strings on 'Still Life' are simultaneously uplifting and ridiculous - maybe I only like it because of my Scott Walker fetish...

Must stop posting... can't believe Kate has got me addicted to this at work... :)

And you wonder why you can't get me off the computer at night... mwah hah hah! Accept it! Be assimilated! You are one of US!!! one of US!!!

Yes, good point about Lush and Boo Radleys being ruined by Britpop, Tom. Criminal assimilations of bands who had previously been creating and exploring their own unique genres, sucked into a genre that destroyed them.

Brit-pop always was an artificial catch-all term. I remember I used to have horrid fights about this on the internet in about 1995/6 or so, when ignorant people would start throwing it around. I mean, honestly, first people would start refering to *any* British band as Britpop, regardless of style or aesthetic. (Radiohead? *not* Britpop by any stretch of the imagination). And then people would start refering to bands who weren't even British as being "britpop". (Erm... the first Dandy Warhols album may have been poppy in a wry, affected, "British" sort of way, but last time I checked they were from *Oregon*).

I agree with you about Britpop starting with the that first Suede Melody Maker cover. That was the point where I really fell out with the UK music press. In the midst of the ardkore revolution and with all sorts of interesting bands working on the fringes of indie and in the post-88 rock and techno diaspora Melody Maker chose a bunch of glam-rock no marks as the best new band in Britain. The paper that championed MBV, The Cranes and Sonic Youth banging on about dull retro-guitar pop? My 16 year old self was furious.

Things didn't get any better, either. The critical fawning over Suede opened the door for all sorts of dull retro-rock, and for the next three years things got steadily worse. Bark Psychosis and Seefeel could barely get a look in amongst all the dreck that filled the press. I think that's really why I hated Britpop at the time, and still do. The stifling omnipresence of it effectively extinguished any other voices operating in the the vague area of indie and some of the best bands this country has ever produced were lost as a result.

It should and could have been Disco Inferno on Top Of The Pops instead of fucking Sleeper.

Fantastic stuff in this thread from Tom especially; as I mentioned the last time we did this, the phrase "Britpop" was used by MM in '93 to invoke something broader and more pluralist than what it became in '95, making particular play of the Auteurs, Saint Etienne, and pre- charts Blur and Pulp - even Disco Inferno might have fitted in. Now admittedly the fact that its concessions to hip-hop and bhangra / ragga were Credit To The Nation and Apache Indian confirms its indieboy tokenism, but I'd have chosen Britpop '93 over Britpop '95 anytime.

I think there's a consensus these days (rightly) that Britpop was when the inkies signed away their journalistic reputation and, dare I say it, integrity - the Oasis turncoatery mentioned the other day being the defining example. I'd agree with Richard that the inkies ended up following a lot of cheesy guitar bands and couldn't recover; certainly the degeneration of Britpop into Britrock / Dadrock and the journalistic collapse of the MM coincided almost exactly.

And the one remaining responsibility for this thread is to follow on from Tom's mention of "Unsolved Child Murder" and cite the Auteurs' "After Murder Park" as the great (British, guitar-based) album to have got lost amid the hysteria of early '96.

. And as has been mentioned elsewhere, much to Nicole's mortification, I still think Menswear had a certain something.

It's not that I *hate* Menswear (they were just kind of frivolous, it would be like getting annoyed by cake icing). It's just that I have Menswear trauma, related to my sister's worship of said band plus having to listen to over an hour of Menswear singles and b-sides one time during a car trip. It's too bad the sick individual that made that tape was never apprehended.

Britpop was such a nebulous term: during that time I heard the term applied to almost any band who happened to be from Great Britain. So it's hard to say that it was all crap. There are so many bands that were considered Britpop that it's hard to sort out now what was great and what was rubbish. And I don't really care to try. This I do know: I still listen to Pulp and St. Etienne from that era, and even a little bit of Suede & Blur (gasp!).

And I applaud Tom in his attempt to rehabilitate "What Do I Do Now?". Awful band with a truly annoying frontperson, but this song was still quite good.

Is it just me, or are we conflating Britpop with the New Wave of New Wave, while managing to leave out both Swervedriver AND Slowdive? Speaking as a poor boy that didn't really "get" into music until '94/'95 (just as Oasis was taking off & the NWONW was losing what little steam it had), Brit Pop always seemed to be about MTV VJ Dave Kendall traipsing around like a member of Sisters of Mercy wetting himself each time he got to play "I Wanna Be Adored" @ 1:50 AM on a Monday morning. For what it's worth, I have to recommend the following (in addition to the usual suspects): - Swervedriver (Mezcal Head, though all 4 albums have much to recommend)
- Boo Radleys (anything pre-Wake Up!, though you lyric Nazis - myself included - will have to check yourselves @ the door. AVOID the black jack-in-the-box record @ ALL COSTS. RUN!)
- Slowdive (Just for a Day sounds REALLY good as a $.99 tape)
- Elastica (Wire royalties notwithstanding, it's a fun li'l album. Dunno about their Second Coming-esque sequel, though. Haven't heard it, and their constant touring with Peaches really doesn't endear them to me all that much.) After that, it's all Revolver & House of Love, innit? Funny thing about Pulp - I like specific songs, but their albums stupify me. Even the orgasmic Different Class. Not that I hate them; I just can't listen to them without the 50-60 minutes seeming like 4-5 hours.

What was Lush's Britpop album? I admit they dropped off my radar fairly quickly and I'd like to blame Britpop rather than my own laziness for this.

I believe everyone is referring to Lovelife by Lush, which features a cameo by - wait for it - Britpop's own salvageable Jarvis Cocker.

Swervedriver and Slowdive are more Shoegazer than Britpop and they both pre-date that Suede by at least a couple of years. Hence no-one mentioning them as examples of Britpop. Both had their moments though.

Goodness knows what Swervedriver were - 'indie' I suppose. Shoegazing and NWONW are separate things to Britpop hence Slowdive not included in Britpop. And you thought dance genres were complicated ;)

Lush record - Lovelife?? Had "Ladykillers" and "Ciao!" on it.

I like what Bjork had to say about Brit pop , which sh e battled. SHe said it was English people clining to their english identity in the face of changes in culture they were too afraid to evolve with. I always thought brit pop was depressing, like country music or hip hop: genre music. Pulp has had its moments, as had Blur, but when you get down to it doesn't any one want to hear anythin g NEW? Let us bury our guitars and drums. Theremins for all!

britpop's last gasp: embrace, "all you good good people." took the world-weary, lovelorn lyrical angle of the verve and applied it to a melody and arrangement that noel gallagher should very well still envy ("cor! that's what 'all around the world' should've sounded like!").

i once had the misfortune to see embrace, in 1993 supporting spiritualized in huddersfield. they were a real local band, sounded like pearl jam. the shocking thing is that somehow, they managed to get even worse

More like Embrace were Britpop's absolute death knell. I mean, talk about an example of what was WRONG with Britpop/rock.

replace "embrace" with "oasis' be here now" and that last sentence makes all the sense in the world. august 26, 1997, the day the britpop died.

I'm surprised this thread has so many responses - I thought Josh would re-direct us to the older thread and this would be consigned to the dustbin of ILM history. Really this question was motivated by my desire to believe Britpop was worthwhile, after all it was the first genre(?) I really got into and enjoyed, and a lot of good memories are tied up with really bad records (cue flashback to 1996, band rehearsing in a freezing Gants Hill garage, DG thinking he's the bees knees for being able to do the drums to 'Tattva'). My first gig was Sleeper at the Ilford Island, with Mansun supporting! I grew out of it pretty quickly and a lot of CDs disappeared in my rather Stalinist purge of 1997, but now I'm not so embarassed about it I'm contemplating getting a few of them back. But perhaps I was embarassed for a reason...

i think britpop looks worse in retrospect than it actually was, it was quite fun (despite overwhelmingly mediocre records) and it was interesting. the worse crimes of britpop were not from its actually period (1994-5) but from the slow decline into post-britpop or, i guess, britrock.

for me, i think britpop gradually morphed into britrock in early 96. saw pulp at brixton academy december 95, and remember thinking 'this is a big celebration for what pulp have managed, but its also the end', by the time 'something changed' came on TOTP in, (feb?) 96 it had already changed.

Wasn't Be Here Now released on the 21st? It was a Thursday, and my GCSE results day. A bad day indeed...

Tom/Robin - great calls on 'Unsolved Child Murder'/'After Murder Park', but I've never heard anything else by Luke Haines that's half as good. Perhaps Albini really can make a difference sometimes...

I remember reading in the paper about some kid who was queueing up to get Be Here Now on his GCSE results day and the reporter was saying now see here young man shouldnt you be finding out what your grades are and the kid was saying no fuck that it's Oasis' new album. Now normally I might have thought, hey youth power, but in fact I thought "you poor kid". It wasn't you was it?

Hell, I'd ditch school to get Dodgy's new album. I'm always up for a reason to ditch school

I don't know, perhaps the reason I get nostalgic for the *good*, magical, celebratory (rather than mastabatory) bits of it was context- compared to the vast sea of flannel and grunge that NYC was drowning in at the time, opening a little window to the Britain that I was so horribly nostalgic for at the time seemed like a Very Good Idea.

Like any movement, in retrospect, a lot of other tangential crap was lumped in with it. And, as usual, the originators and inventers are invariably better than the 2nd generation copyists. It's only by the time you get to 3rd generation mis-copies that things get interesting. (3rd generation shoegazers Boo Radleys were 1000 times more interesting than 2nd generation Catherine Wheel, for example) However, by the time you got to 3rd Generation copyists of Britpop, instead of evolving into something interesting, it had devolved into Wellerisms and the atrocities of Dadrock. (probably one of my *favourite* genre names ever!)

Good god, Shoegazing, Baggy, the NWONW, Britpop, Britrock, Dadrock... my head is spinning. Thank goodness good old Indie isn't nearly as confusing as all those confounded *dance* genres! Now *this* I understand!

British kids get their exam results in the middle of the Summer holidays, I should point out.

Anyone who bought a Dodgy album should have to do ten years extra school.

2nd Generation and 3rd Generation shoegazers? CHRIST! The Cath Wheel and the Boo Rs are surely separated by, what, 5 mins rock time - I know I'd heard Ichabod & I before I'd even heard of the CW. Surely a 'generation' has to mean at least, like, a year or two ;)

Also the phrase 'generation' implies shoegazers reproducing which is hardly likely.

Isn't it a bit rich though, to call the 20 yr old Pulp a BritPop band? Is to be labelled a BritPop band really only a case of a british guitar band merely releasing a successful album within the years '93 - '97?

Is Radiohead's 'The Bends' a BritPop album? What about Morrissey's 'Vauxhall & I'; Tindersticks' 'Second Album'; Jack's 'Pioneer Soundtracks'; Kenickie's 'At The Club'? Fine, fine, super-fine albums all, but should they too be tarred with the same 'in hindsight BritPop it was ruinous' brush?

By the by, I really quite liked Menswe@r's 'Daydreamer': "[dum, dum, dum] Breeve deepah! [dum, dum, dum] Day-dreeeeeamah!'

I flounder, drowning...

Heh. I remember a lot of shoegazer fans wanting to, ahem, reproduce with Rachel Goswell.

"This Is Hardcore" the song is a screaming classic and is the entire reason I listen to Pulp now. (I managed to completely miss the entire Britpop phenomenon by listening solely to drum 'n bass/trip- hop for three years.) _This Is Hardcore_ the album has some slow spot, but also has some wildly fantastic moments ("The Fear", "Help The Aged", "Seductive Barry").

Eh? I think _This is Hardcore_ is great myself, one or two songs I'd ditch, but "The Fear," "Dishes," "Glory Days" (and its B-side analog "Cocaine Socialism"), the title track...wonderful.

I know less than nothing about Dodgy, but they has this one *great* song with "Good" in the title, I think.

Anyway, an interesting comparison :

Britpop, as seen by Canadians (and possibly Americans too): Cool alt- rock stuff. Britpop, as seen by Brits: Godawful reactionary nostalgic bullshit.

I don't know, but over here, I doubt that there was much of an overlap between the nostalgic-for-the-60s crowd and the Blur-loving Anglophile/music-geek bunch.

"Daydreamer" was hugely bad. The only thing to bother with is "Sleeping In", and I say that only from vague memory. Come to think of it, "Sleeping In" sucked bigtime also. I'd say that "Stardust" had charm but ultimately, it's cookie dough . And I just can't remember "Being Brave".

Dodgy's "Good Enough": horrific. "In a Room": less so but not 'owt spesh.

Alright, alright, I won't mention TIH again. Or listen to it. Ho ho ho.

Brilliant! I mean, wait.

And I see Dan and I agree on something. Must have been, oh, ten seconds since that last happened.

Set the CON-trols for the heart of the pellllvis, havencha heard? My name rhymes with Elllllvis.

Fuck yeah. That is the most godly single to ever be put out, EVER, even better than Dance Magic by David Bowie. The one thing I know is this: your mouth is telling me to give you...a....big...kiiiiiiisssssssss....

Fucking hell. That is sincerely the best song I've ever heard in all my days and nights. I believe Tom came up with this theory that all songs with spaceman countdowns on it are ace, and I reckon he's right even though I only know two songs with spacemen countdowns (Set the Controls and Space Oddity).

That's right girls, that's right...save me from mah own hand...

Oh I need to go home and get that CD RIGHT NOW OR ELSE MY HEAD WILL EXPLODE. Listen, to ANYONE reading this who hasn't heard Set the Controls for the Heart of the Pelvis by Barry Adamson, go download it. Now. You will not regret it, and indeed you will probably petition the leader of whatever country you are from to have a holiday in my honor for insisting you go get a copy of the song.

And yeah, Kate, we should have a thread, me and you slag off all the men we know. That'll be fantastic.

Upon reflection I think Verve, up to and including 'Storm in Heaven', might be worth savaging. 'The' Verve lost it, palled up with Noel and Liam, and drafted in Owen Morris to Oasisify 'Northern Soul' (with crap Beatles-esque cover), but those early eps did have a certain druggy waywardness and 'live' they sailed away. Another band who got sucked into the wretched Brit-pop vortex, sold a lot of records, but should have been gods.

Oh dear, I've been avoiding the "Pelvis" song, but I have an awful feeling that Paul is going to play it as soon as this lovely Neu! reissue I've snuck onto the stereo is over... HEEELLLLPPPP!!!

Be careful, Ally, or I will take you up on that. Though I suppose it'll be deleted as quickly as our flaming thread. Gosh, wouldn't that be fun? "All men, come and have a go if you're hard enough. Ally and Kate demolish yer egos!" or something.

OH MY FUCKING GOD, THIS MOTHER SAMPLES THE "ROCKS" RIFF!!! HELP!!!! HELP!!!! It's the Primal Scream song they never had the guts to write! This is... this is... I know it will all be over the moment Jarvis starts singing, I detest his gargling voice! But the music is genius. That I admit.

ACK! ACK!!!! I WAS LOVING IT UNTIL JARVIS STARTED GARGLING ALL OVER IT!!! BRING BACK BOBBY G!!!!! ARRRRRRRRGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!

Heh... think I've just found the perfect track to open my primetime DJ slot at Strange Fruit this Saturday! :) 'Save me from my own hand!'

good heavens, girl, what drugs have you consumed to prefer Bobby to Jarvis?

Oh dear, our facade of being the same person has crumbled.

You're right there, Patrick. I think a lot of the discrediting of Britpop (or, as it had become by then, Britrock) came from some of the tossers who celebrated it as a return to "real British musical values" after it had gone mainstream. Whereas in North America it was a cult thing, so obviously seen totally differently.

And Gareth is right about when Britpop turned sour. I can almost recall the exact *day*.

"How is it a "bit rich" to refer to Pulp as a Britpop band? Have you ever listened to their pre- His'n'Hers records? Their sound changed and it fit the mould of certain aspects of Britpop, and it changed AT THE SAME TIME Britpop was evolving. I mean, that was then, this is now, and the Pulp of pre-His'n'Hers might as well be a completely different band. "

I would say their sound was changing before the days of 'His 'n' Hers' and the time the label BritPop was coined.

I would say the first true BritPop records were Blur's 'Popscene' single and the 'Modern Life Is Rubbish' album. They were direct statements of intent to pull away from the grunge scene and all things American. A deliberate harking back to the British guitar scene of the mid to late 60s.

Pulp on the other hand were merely doing their own thing. They weren't reacting against Americanism by deliberatley producing a retro, quintessentially English sound - that's just how they sounded! They were perfecting their sound, it's true. 'Common People' may have been one of *the* archetypal BritPop albums of the 90s, and though the album saw them commenting on the world - well, London - about them in a way that fitted them into the BritPop scene, it was still all merely happenstance. They weren't scensters. You didn't see Jarvis tootle off to The Good Mixer on his moped - sorry, *scooter*. If Grunge, or a different scene had played out thruough the 90's, I doubt whether 'Common People' would have sounded *that* different.

And that was my point. If an English band released a successful, guitar-based album in the mid 90's - does that make them a BritPop *band* despite their history or intent? Or does it just mean they released a - deliberately or not - BritPop *album*.

I don't see how intent comes into it. If your sound falls into the Britpop umbrella (which I think has very little to do with guitars, actually), then you're doing Britpop. Just like how a band might have all intents to do up a pop album, but if it comes out like metal-goth it's a metal-goth album.

(pokes head thru curtains)

Well then Ally, you'd apparently also like the other "Major Tom" by Peter Schilling.

4... 3... 2... 1...
Earth below us
drifting falling
floating weightless
calling, calling, home...

I still quite like the first album by The High, but other than that, not much...

Pulp weren't Scenesters, DavidM? Rubbish! For a couple of years, Jarvis would turn up to any old bash that would put him on the guest list (and plenty did, as his movements were being pretty well documented by music papers, tabloids and broadsheets alike at the time). I considered becoming his stalker for a while because it was so easy to have a look at the ads in the back of the Melody Maker and predict which gigs he'd be at.

Further damning evidence can be found in the video for Do You Remember The First Time, which features two or three chaps out of Menswe@ar.

All that doesn't mean I don't love Pulp though. None of the other bands that have survived Britpop come close.

Let's not forget that Jarvis shagged Chloe Sevigny, how much more scenster can you get?

On the contrary: please, let's forget it.

I would have to agree with Pinefox on this subject.

It's becoming clear to me that Pinefox is the most sensible person on the board.

Pfffff. Jarvis Cocker has the worst glasses, like, ever. I mean, who'd want to shag a man with those specs?

Apart from Chloe Sevigny, obviously.

The point is is that Jarvis is/was a huge scenester. The idea that Pulp were not a part of Britpop because they started making music prior to the Britpop explosion (even though their sound was completely different before the Britpop thing) and because Jarvis isn't a scenester (which he rather blatantly was, showing up at every event, up to and including some elementary school's band year end performance, most likely) doesn't make any sense to me, and I'm trying to suss it out. Forgetting it or talking about his recentish acquisition of horrible dodgy glasses is stupid - what do you lot want, talk about music or no talk at all? Forgive me if I'm wrong but I'm catching shit lately for not talking about music enough, I'm talking about a musician and I"m being told to drop it.

To go back to the original point, Pulp were/are blatantly a Britpop band. The definition of Britpop, to me, is about the actual sound, ie the Blur/Suede/Pulps of the world - not about whether or not a band was bandwagon jumping onto the pop explosion. I wouldn't believe intent would enter into it if your music fits the definition of a genre. For an example that is better than my metal example of above: the Beatles probably intended to sound desperately weird at the later part of their career. What they actually did was make pop music. I'm not going to genre hump them into the avant garde because they intended to sound a little psychadelic.

And that's my point. Intent is irrelevant if the end result is the same. No one awards points for effort in the real world.

Oops. Sorry.

Britpop might have died around the same time as Be Here Now came out, but I don't think that was what killed it off - it was merely the vanishing of Britpop's last chance to survive. Be Here Now wasn't that bad, especially when compared to Embrace. It was just the end of the gradual process of the scene going from the bands who had been unfairly lumped under the Britpop moniker but had formed with original ideas, to the ones who actually aspired to be the next Oasis.

I actually got out of Britpop when I first came to New Jersey and discovered P-Rex (a record store with a great discount bin), that had all of the bands like Gay Dad, Hurricane #1, etc. CDs for 3.99. I started buying them up because they had been 18.99 import titles in Canada, and thank God I didn't pay that much at the time because they were awful. That was when I moved on, and now I understand why you Real Brits hated it all.

Supergrass are still awesome, though.

Well their first album was great but they haven't really done anything good since, have they?

I still maintain Jarvis wasn't really a BritPop scenester, though he certainly WAS a ligger - he even turned up to the Action Man 30th (or whatever) anniversary bash for his free champagne.

Dickon from Orlando also appeared in the 'Mis-Shapes' video.

But as for the BritPop scene in general though, music fans *do* look back on it with fondness. A golden period where TOTP was overrun by mop-haired white-boy guitar bands like Supergrass, The Charlatens, OCS, Blur etc. Comparing it to todays chart that many feel is clogged with kiddie- pop, R n'B mush and Nu-Metal it sems like a bright period of 'real' music, happy times and posivitism.

S'funny, 'cos I remember reading, almost weekly, in Melody Maker, articles about such things as 'The Culture of Despair' all that blather about 'pre-millennial angst' teenage Richey fans cutting themselves and major, era-defining albums such as 'The Holy Bible'; 'In Utero'; 'OK Computer'; 'The Downward Spiral' and the Northern Uproar album. Not so happy-happy, joy-joy then.

My happiest BritPop memories of the time was Ben & Jerry's 'Cool Britania' Ice-cream. Diagnosis: deeeee-licious! And it was discontinued in '97 as well. Bah, bug and hum.

My happiest BritPop memories of the time was Ben & Jerry's 'Cool Britania' Ice-cream. Diagnosis: deeeee-licious! And it was discontinued in '97 as well. Bah, bug and hum.

Come to think of it, that ice cream was probably the best thing to come out of the whole debacle, so of course it's gone. Somebody else should take up the "putting shortbread into ice cream" mantle.

what follows is a part political broadcast for Lush, as I feel it is my duty to defend Lovelife (granted, I am sad enough to have what I think is the 2nd largest collection of lush bootlegs on this planet - but its been a while since I got anymore...)

Lush's 1996 album, Lovelife, is a pop classic, and the departure to what sounded like britpop was unintentional, its just they got their live sound man to produce it, and it ended up being less filled with FX than previous records, which they felt was their natural sound. (listen to Scar or even Split, it's obvious in those albums as well). not only this, but it is actually a very complete album and includes bona fide classic 'last night' . listen to it. (but this is just my sad opinion).

also, I remember Menswear's Being Brave as being an OK song, much better than any of the other crap I put out. plus, anyone have that copy of Vox put out after Knebworth where they devoted the entire thing to 'the new beat generation'. I loved it at the time (i was an impressionable 13), but the self-conscious and pretentious article weller wrote, and the article with northern uproar testing scooters are a bit beyond the grain now. even cast were hailed as one of the greatest musical forces ever! similarly, there was a Later BritBeat special, which I still have on video somewhere, which included performances from just about every band lumped into Britpop, that helpfully most clearly defines whatever it was meant to be all about.

Bill

Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit, I remember that! A friend had that issue, and I remember not being impressed with the article. I would *love* to read it again though.

Bill: I share your love of 'Lovelife'. It's my favourite Lush album - by a whisker.

I do miss Lush. What was it that drove Chris Acland to suicide? Was it ever known?

I think I remember the BritBeat thing as well. Was it the one presented by Damon Albarn?

Chris committed suicide over despair of still living in his parents house, making small wages and general depression, I wager.

There was a special called Britpop Now! that Damon presented, although that may not have been the orig. title (I saw it in Canada).

"Britpop Now" (the UK title as well) was the Albarn-fronted show from '95 and defined what it was when it was still Brit*pop*; the Later Britbeat special came from '96 and defined the music after it had degenerated into Britrock / Dadrock.

That Vox "new beat generation" guff - now there's a fucking memory.

Anyone want me to type/scan the 'new beat generation' thing after I finish a-levels (i'm anticipating quite a lot of free time on my hands seeing as I finish so much earlier than everyone else!)

Bill

Yes, by all means. I don't mind being reminded of my nightmare year :).

The difference between britpop and britrock is... ?

... see the earlier thread. But for Tom and me: Blur / Pulp / Supergrass (at least their first album) = Britpop; Oasis (apart from maybe their very early stuff) / Paul Weller / Cast / Ocean Colour Scene / Kula Shaker = Britrock. Most of the stuff up to late 95 = Britpop, most of the stuff from early 96 onwards = Britrock.

Hey leave britpop alone! I love it and it still constitutes nearly all of my music collection. Pulp, Blur, Oasis, Echobelly, The Charlatans, I love em all. Can anyone email me an actual dictionary- ish definition of what britpop actually is?

Mrs as in Mrs MJ Hibbert? The man himself surely could provide a better definition than I ever could.

Britpop was fucking great! It was my Mad-chester. I lived through it. I got into music through it! Why would anyone want to shit on my memories? The accusation that it made Britain proud and nationalistic is bollocks with a capital B. It did no such thing, it just produced loads of good singles, quickly forgotten about bands (Echobelly, Menswear, Sleeper - where art thou now?) and made all of us young 'uns go to concerts and grow fringes like Brett Anderson.

Now where, I ask you, is the problem with that?

And the tunes, slag them if you so desire, were much much catchier and funkier than any degree of nu-metal bullshit. How can Britpop be 'offensive' yet the likes of Eminem and Slipknot are not? Hmmm? At least 'What do I do Now?' by Sleeper (one of the best songs of the period. FACT) said something to me about my life (paraphrasing, sort of, another great UK band there).

Before Britpop we all has to listen to grunge (Groooo-some, except Nirvana. Obviously) and yank-pop and it SUCKED! But Britpop gave us something to relate too - the fay androgny of Jarvis or Brett, the laddism of Damon or Liam and the sexy indie chick look of Louise Weiner (purr).

In the ideal world all music scenes would produce Blur, Oasis, Pulp and Suede during this period... and we'd all get pissed up and jump about to 'Breathe deepah... Daydreamah'.

I salute ye great Britpop.

Before Britpop we all has to listen to grunge and yank-pop

As opposed to today, where you have Creed and Britney!

*coughschmindiecough*

And your point is?

Music today, for me, is not as appealing as what it was during Britpop. Though I like The Strokes, and the likes of Garbage, Mercury Rev and Pulp are still producing good music - I see little little else to cheer me up.

The new Oasis single is pretty damn funky though.

yeah like several people who have already posted here,my musical "coming of age" coincided with britpop,and i remember getting copies of ocean colour scene tapes off people in school,etc.. anyway,i also have that jools holland britpop special on tape,which i thought was great at the time...nowdays,bar a few songs which i still like (slight return by the bluetones,yes by mc almont and butler)the only britpoppy entities i like are pulp and the super furries,who i still love,especially the latter...i think they both managed to avoid being,well,shit,basically,by not resigning themselves to being britpop just cause the nme said so,and both have made brilliant albums in the last few years...

Not sure how many people from the other side of the Atlantic have weighed in on this, but considering the only real inroads Britpop made into the States was "Song 2", maybe it's got more novelty here since it's not as relentlessly hyped. Even with Oasis we were all "yeah, wow" for a month, then immediately went batshit for "electronica" instead. Me, I like the last couple Supergrass albums and think Blur's got some great singles and I even like Elastica's "The Menace", ferchrissakes. This will happen when the big in-yer-face rock paradigm of the day is Stone Temple Pilots with an incoming shower of Limp Bizkit and people think Jarvis Cocker is that galoot that John Belushi used to impersonate on SNL (or, if more knowledgeable, "Hey, he mooned Michael Jackson! Is he in a band or something?).

Song 2 was not 'Britpop' as such - Blur having killed that image at about the same time they released their self titled fifth album.

For me, Britpop begun to dwindle in early 1997 and by the time of Be Here Now, Embrace having top 10 hits and the return of The Verve and Catatonia the thing had died a quick and speedy death. By the end of 1997, Sleeper were playing to half full halls at universities, Menswear had been dropped, Pulp's comeback single barely scrapped the top 10 and Oasis were a joke.

By 1998 Ash, The Bluetones and Echobelly could not give their albums away. Funnily enough, Blur were the only band to come out critically and commericlaly unscathed.

For the record I still really like The Bluetones, and McAlmont and Butler have actually gotten back together.

I will say, with some disdain, that the Britpop scene killed my favourite band: Suede. While I enjoyed Coming Up (I would argue this was the last great Britpop album), gone were the experimental landscapes, haunting melodies and bleak lyrics of their masterpiece, Dog Man Star, and their 1999 release Head Music seemed unable to realise that the scene had climaxed two and half years before. It was shite and Suede were over. They'll make their comeback but they'll never be credible or big sellers again. I know I won't be listening.

stoned roses, ride, my bloody valentine, stereolab, jesus and mary chain, Elvis(?)

I, like a lot of others, did get into music by listening to Britpop. The first Oasis and different class (especially the latter) are pretty good. Coming up was the best post britpop if you like (bit too glammy i know but you know lets not get bogged down by genre classification please).

But i started to hate it all pretty quickly because the great escape, morning glory were shit and Pulp just seemed to lose it for a bit. Its great they are still going and I'm definetely gonna get round to catching up with their records.

Also I started going back and started discovering Husker du records, MBV and so on and they all far better than anything here and then I met Beffheart and so on...

Overall though I don't regret buying it. Its good music to grow out of (and there's nothing wrong with that). It was good stuff, even if in hindsight it was all a rehash of 60s pop and hey, it killed the Melody maker and if NME goes it will probably be because of it. If they had actually latched on to drum n'base/dance and tried to cover a wider scope of music then they may not have been on their knees.