what will sport metal/nu-metal fans say in their defence when it becomes clearer with time, that even their best bands left no legacy, and nothing to be proud of ?

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the ex editor of kerrrrrrrrrang was on radio 6
going on about the fact that everyone
in music press publishing must be dead dead happy that
it's a moment that's passed, and we now have
the nme's patented 'new rock revolution' to
be getting on with. i mean all those suburban
'break stuff' kids
- how will their look *their* kids in the eye

piscesboy, Saturday, 18 January 2003 14:58 (twenty-three years ago)

The same way the REO Speedwagon/Survivor fanbase deals with it -- namely, the vast majority of 'em don't care and are reasonably well adjusted.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 18 January 2003 15:06 (twenty-three years ago)

i'm sure they won't really mind,if you have to generalize about fans of nu-metal,you'd have to say that most of them are fairly young and will probably grow out of it in a year or two anyway,possibly moving on to the nme sponsored new rock or whatever it is...

robin (robin), Saturday, 18 January 2003 16:12 (twenty-three years ago)

They'll move on to bigger and better/worse things.

Curtis Stephens, Saturday, 18 January 2003 16:58 (twenty-three years ago)

they'll move onto the harder stuff
like slayer and pantera

gi66y, Saturday, 18 January 2003 17:18 (twenty-three years ago)

"You're a townie, you wouldn't understand"

Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 18 January 2003 17:22 (twenty-three years ago)

Chuck Klosterman to thread.

nabisco (nabisco), Saturday, 18 January 2003 20:06 (twenty-three years ago)

Chocolate Starfish over you all.

Limp Bizkit's hits comp will be five stars. Linkin's might if they keep it up. Korn's will be...interesting. Deftones too.

Surprised there's so much hate for nu-metal. Doesn't anybody detect the Depeche Mode influence? Lots of goth shit for ambience there.

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 18 January 2003 20:26 (twenty-three years ago)

Surprised there's so much hate for nu-metal. Doesn't anybody detect the Depeche Mode influence?

Yes I do, and that's a big part of why I hate it so much. It's Depeche Mode minus the feyness!! What could possibly be worse?

Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Sunday, 19 January 2003 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

If there is one nu-metal band which will stand up in time, it is System Of A Down. System Of A Down fucking rules! They are probably the only good band in the genre.

Mike Taylor (mjt), Sunday, 19 January 2003 04:18 (twenty-three years ago)

It's Depeche Mode minus the depth, talent and songwriting genius is what it is. Linkin Park sorta gets the sound right and the Deftones are obvious (and admitted) worshippers. Limp Bizkit, however = not fit to lick Martin Gore's discarded mid-eighties perv outfits.

And yeah, like Daniel_Rf notes, the unrelentingly machoness of it all is just soulsucking after awhile. Best comment about Jonathan Davis and Fred Durst ever came from our own Mr. Perry, who noted that they were both apparently attacked by the jocks at their respective high schools, but regrettably were not beaten up enough.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 19 January 2003 08:31 (twenty-three years ago)

They'll be able to say in their defense, "Hey, at least it wasnt the 'new rock revolution'"

I think the machoness is what stops me really getting into any of this stuff but it doesn't stop me quite enjoying it - I think it'll sound fine in x years time, providing a token couple of entries on "that was the 00s" comps and not arousing too much thought either way.

The one System Of A Down song I heard is atrocious by the way. And Depeche Mode for the last ten years are worse than any nu-metal band.

Tom (Groke), Sunday, 19 January 2003 09:32 (twenty-three years ago)

what will the rock is back!/retrorockrevolution fans say in their defence when it becomes clearer with time that even their best bands left no legacy and nothing to be proud of?

James Blount (James Blount), Sunday, 19 January 2003 10:00 (twenty-three years ago)

what is sha na na's legacy anyway?

James Blount (James Blount), Sunday, 19 January 2003 10:01 (twenty-three years ago)

hey, wait, since when is it pop musics duty to leave a legacy? better to leave no trace. legacy is for suckas...

gareth (gareth), Sunday, 19 January 2003 12:33 (twenty-three years ago)

what will the rock is back!/retrorockrevolution fans say in their defence when it becomes clearer with time that even their best bands left no legacy and nothing to be proud of?

I figure it's whatever Lyres fans say now- don't know what that is, though, never met one (Sha Na Na is a flawed comparsion because Sha Na Na were an intenional pastiche, weren't they? At any rate, their legacy is a mention in an Adam Sandler song)

Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Sunday, 19 January 2003 15:15 (twenty-three years ago)

And Depeche Mode for the last ten years are worse than any nu-metal band.

Dan Perry to thread! We must fight this scourge.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 19 January 2003 15:19 (twenty-three years ago)

they'll move onto the harder stuff
like slayer and pantera

Considering that Pantera arguably kicked off this whole worthless "break stuff" ideal, that'd probably not happen. Slayer would be even more implausible, why would 13 year olds care about 40-somethings churning out sub-par copies of their 1985 hit album? Then again, U2 is still popular... But think of it this way: what happened to all the 2 Unlimited fans?

Siegbran (eofor), Sunday, 19 January 2003 15:35 (twenty-three years ago)

But think of it this way: what happened to all the 2 Unlimited fans?

They all post on ILx.

Billy Dods (Billy Dods), Sunday, 19 January 2003 15:46 (twenty-three years ago)

Songwriting genius = "People Are People"?

System Of a Down have some great stuff and a lot of these other bands have at least a couple good singles. Nu-metal will probably go down as one of the most eclectic and diverse periods for mainstream hard rock in years. I don't get the REO/Survivor comparison. I don't think anyone would consider those to be among the best bands of their genre. 70s/80s AOR has left a huge legacy anyway. Just look at all the threads on this board. Or turn on the radio.

sundar subramanian (sundar), Sunday, 19 January 2003 16:05 (twenty-three years ago)

the last ten years of depeche mode ?
don't get me started.
all i'll say is
'higher love' 'love thieves' 'home'
'i feel loved' 'walking in my shoes'
'in your room'.
some of my favourite ever songs.

piscesboy, Sunday, 19 January 2003 16:37 (twenty-three years ago)

nu-metal posture and lyrics = populist sugarcoating for "most eclectic and diverse periods blah blah" (eg sundar's point above, which i think i good in respect of form-as-content)

the fans swallow the sugar and (unconsciously*) absorb the deep lesson of the music in all its range
the hataz choke on the sugar and remain oblivious to the nothing beyond it

*(as the future musicians among them grow up the deep lesson will of course re-emerge in forms as yet unguessed)

mark s (mark s), Sunday, 19 January 2003 16:46 (twenty-three years ago)

Slayer would be even more implausible, why would 13 year olds care about 40-somethings churning out sub-par copies of their 1985 hit album?

My younger brother snarls about how much he hates nu-metal but Slayer's one of his favorite bands and I think I just heard him blasting System of a Down. This amuses me.

Maria (Maria), Sunday, 19 January 2003 16:57 (twenty-three years ago)

one of the most eclectic and diverse

Eclectic is a fair point, but diverse? It's one of the most formulaic genres in rock today...

Siegbran (eofor), Sunday, 19 January 2003 17:05 (twenty-three years ago)

well a lot of bands have a couple of good singles. that's not saying much.

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Sunday, 19 January 2003 17:07 (twenty-three years ago)

Taking on Mark S's point: I've heard the argument from various sources that metal is actually the most diverse form of music around because it can absorb anything and everything and shape it to its own ends. An odd but perhaps not surprising twist on the argument that it's hip-hop which holds such a pride of place.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 19 January 2003 17:08 (twenty-three years ago)

yeah, metal has absorbed some prog but i don't think hip-hop have got down to those yes albs.

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Sunday, 19 January 2003 17:10 (twenty-three years ago)

Depeche Mode minus the depth, talent and songwriting genius

A terrifying thought.

stevo (stevo), Sunday, 19 January 2003 18:01 (twenty-three years ago)

oi! I like that single where the singer is dressed like the pope.

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Sunday, 19 January 2003 18:08 (twenty-three years ago)

in the video, that is.

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Sunday, 19 January 2003 18:11 (twenty-three years ago)

"We never promised you a paradise, you were fools to expect one etc. etc."

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Sunday, 19 January 2003 19:15 (twenty-three years ago)

will they be forced in fornt of some sort of tribunal when making these declarations?

keith (keithmcl), Sunday, 19 January 2003 19:17 (twenty-three years ago)

sport metal : ). is it like beach volley rock?

Chupa-Cabras (vicc13), Sunday, 19 January 2003 20:12 (twenty-three years ago)

Surf metal will be the next big thing.

Curtis Stephens, Sunday, 19 January 2003 20:24 (twenty-three years ago)

Songwriting genius= Enjoy the Silence!

Micheline Gros-Jean (Micheline), Sunday, 19 January 2003 23:03 (twenty-three years ago)

I'm changing my first statement. Nu-metal (if defined as including all mainstream radio metal) is probably the most diverse and eclectic period in the history of mainstream hard rock so far. Can this even be debated of a genre that includes Slipknot as well as Linkin Park? I mean, the fact that Depeche Mode has become a reference point for metal is something in itself. (That wasn't happening in grunge's heyday, for example.)

Eclectic is a fair point, but diverse? It's one of the most formulaic genres in rock today...

The only other genres in mainstream rock that even seem to really exist as genres at the moment are post-Pearl Jam Creed/Nickelback-style stadium anthem bands and pop-punk. If you're arguing that nu-metal is in any way more formulaic than these then I think you're crazy.

Also, I downloaded 5 or 6 songs from Slayer's Reign In Blood. I did enjoy them all. But, aside from "Raining Blood", which is distinguished by being longer and containing campy sound effects, they all sounded more or less the same. Nu-metal as a genre seems obviously less formulaic to me.

Julio, it's not a big enough priority in my life for me to keep up with this stuff on an album basis but it's pop music. It basically lives and dies on a song-by-song basis and I think it's been putting a number of interesting singles on the radio and some good ones. I don't know what else you expect. I really think that it has been a breath of fresh air in rock. Sounds which were on the fringes in the 90s (industrial, emo/hardcore, death metal, noise rock) are being incorporated into pop music. And I do think Toxicity is quite good as a heavy rock album, possibly better than anything by Soundgarden, for example. "Toxicity" is an amazing single, far better than anything by Nirvana, maybe better than anything by Fugazi.

Re machismo: Does rap bother you for the same reasons, out of curiosity? The machismo or at least the misogyny in heavy rock has probably been very toned down since the days of Deep Purple and Led Zeppelin.

I don't remember "Enjoy the Silence" but from the (admittedly few) songs I've heard, it would seem to me that production was DM's greatest strength, not songwriting. Lyrics were probably their biggest weakness.

sundar subramanian (sundar), Monday, 20 January 2003 23:09 (twenty-three years ago)

I thought about the hip-hop thing too, Sundar - it's probably where a lot of nu-metal's machismo came from. I think the problem for me was that in trad hard rock the often quite campy singing styles counterbalanced the musical hard-riffing roughness, and in hip-hop the music while hardly 'feminine' doesn't carry the same associations of macho - nu-metal combined the vocal aggression with the riffage.

Tom (Groke), Monday, 20 January 2003 23:15 (twenty-three years ago)

The one System Of A Down song I heard is atrocious by the way. And Depeche Mode for the last ten years are worse than any nu-metal band.

MENTALIST.

Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 20 January 2003 23:21 (twenty-three years ago)

second sundar's statement (shit, a LOT of his statements). A listen to "Somebody" should reaffirm that Linkin Park isn't exactly dishonoring what ever lyrical fire Depeche had.

"associations of macho" seems to be the problem here, if you remotely remind ILM-type listeners of the people they hated in high school, they can't even listen to the music you're playing. too busy recoiling from your music videos and haircuts.

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 20 January 2003 23:23 (twenty-three years ago)

Re-read the post Anthony, it's not macho I'm against it's the kind of machismo-squared you get in nu-metal, where there's no elements to offset the machismo and make it entertaining not exhausting. The rock and rap bits of rock-rap have usually seemed to me to blur and muddy each other, not enhance each other. That said, yeah on paper it's great and inventive.

Tom (Groke), Monday, 20 January 2003 23:28 (twenty-three years ago)

yeah, I don't understand why hating music because it sounds 'macho' is any more valid than hating music because it sounds 'gay'

James Blount, Monday, 20 January 2003 23:29 (twenty-three years ago)

Sometimes I get an hour or two preview of M2 on a revolving station and it's quite often a "rock block" kind of thing during that time: and what I've found is that -- as always seems to be the case when major labels are scooping up rock bands and tossing them at a wall -- some very interesting one-off pop singles are coming out of all this. I'd be awfully hard pressed to remember the names and titles of many of them, but they're in there. My favorites are, ummm, some ugly blonde guys in jumpsuits, this long-haired girl up with the metal growl, and some guys that sound like a great lost alt-rock single from 1995.

nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 20 January 2003 23:29 (twenty-three years ago)

Now this is getting interesting. So distorted guitar riffing but not hip-hop beats connotes machismo which = what here? Aggression? Misogyny? Any positive qualities (strength, independence, responsibility)? Why are these qualities associated with these sounds?

Also, what do you think of Linkin Park's "In the End", where the singer whines cleanly and somewhat feyly about his helplessness over pop beats?

sundar subramanian (sundar), Monday, 20 January 2003 23:30 (twenty-three years ago)

(NB James it might be because "macho" = it is hulking and wants to pound you whereas "gay" = it is cute and wants to have sex with you.)

(Also Linkin Park and really most of the new wave of this stuff I see completely destroy all normal caricatures of what "nu-metal" is, particularly on the "macho" front -- they're really just anthemic rock songs with big hooks and soupy guitars.)

nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 20 January 2003 23:32 (twenty-three years ago)

linkin park minX u r all macho

mark s (mark s), Monday, 20 January 2003 23:32 (twenty-three years ago)

nu-metal combined the vocal aggression with the riffage.

But that was already the case with (NY) hardcore before it embraced the hiphop stylings and mutated into nu-metal (who actually coined that term?).

Siegbran (eofor), Monday, 20 January 2003 23:34 (twenty-three years ago)

frankly I like all kinds of macho AND gay bands. and Limp Bizkit is pretty gay for a macho band. Possibly part of what I enjoy about them.

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 20 January 2003 23:37 (twenty-three years ago)

"The machismo or at least the misogyny in heavy rock has probably been very toned down since the days of Deep Purple and Led Zeppelin."

I really don't see how anyone can argue that this is true. The macho-loathing of Linkin Park, Limp Bizkit, Korn, et al strikes me as deeply mysogynistic (in an "I'm gonna kill that bitch that broke up with me!" kinda way), much moreso than, say, "Babe I'm Gonna Leave You" or "American Woman".

Shakey Mo Collier, Monday, 20 January 2003 23:38 (twenty-three years ago)

Never (knowingly) heard any Linkin Park. My favourite Bizkit song is "My Way" though where he flicks between frustration and attempted assertion and prettiness and ugliness really effectively, so I'd probably like it. My favourite Puddle of Mudd song is "She Hates Me". System of a Down's finickity stop-starting isn't macho *enough*.

And yes machismo in music has positive qualities - including the ones you mention plus often its brasher and funnier than non-machismo - which is why I listen to hip-hop and (when I do) rock. Why do I associate riffing with macho and not beats? Good question - I'm not sure I know myself. Maybe because I don't associate dancing with machismo except in a less aggressive, show-offy way, and I associate beats with dancing.

Siegbran I like NY hardcore (or any hardcore) much less than nu-metal.

Tom (Groke), Monday, 20 January 2003 23:38 (twenty-three years ago)

Shakey Mo, give me a single example of what you're describing in Linkin, Limp, Korn's lyrics as "I'm gonna kill that bitch that broke up with me".

Led Zep said "The soul of a woman comes from below!!!!" I don't think any of the three bands you mentioned have gone anywhere near that. The worst Bizkit did is say they were just in it for the nookie. Which, if anything, is refreshingly honest. Linkin and Korn rarely even TALK about women. So what the fuck are you referring to?

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 20 January 2003 23:45 (twenty-three years ago)

(OMG I just said "New Rock Revolution" in a non-ironic context. That's what I get for buying that NME just because it had El Strummer on the cover...)

Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 00:18 (twenty-three years ago)

Andrew WK and Queens Of The Stone Age reaffirm that new rock revolution can only handle bombast when they think the band might be kidding.

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 00:23 (twenty-three years ago)

They weren't kidding?

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 00:26 (twenty-three years ago)

five months pass...
"it was the fashion at the time. Everyone did it"

gerald, Saturday, 12 July 2003 11:21 (twenty-two years ago)

one year passes...
well?

piscesboy, Wednesday, 11 May 2005 13:10 (twenty-one years ago)

"The same way the REO Speedwagon/Survivor fanbase deals with it -- namely, the vast majority of 'em don't care and are reasonably well adjusted."

David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 13:18 (twenty-one years ago)

yes ta.

i'm not sure what the people big into the likes of (hed PE), Murder Dolls and Disturbed are into now - presumably Mars Volta and S.O.A.D. still? or maybe shifted towards The Killers and co? or even noise?

$V£N! (blueski), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 13:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Let us bow our heads in the memory of Twizt'd. *does so*

I was actually most amused how the vast majority of bands were trumpeting that they had their 'own label' after an album or two on whatever major they were signed with. Nothing Records they weren't.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 13:45 (twenty-one years ago)

ned, your very first post on this thread is exactly OTM in the same way that stencil's first post on the dave matthews thread is.

peter smith (plsmith), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 13:52 (twenty-one years ago)

*bows* I admit I do like Daver's requote.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 13:53 (twenty-one years ago)

Nedward, that might be the truest thing I've ever seen you type (aside from places where you give me props).

David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 14:02 (twenty-one years ago)

It's Depeche Mode minus the depth, talent and songwriting genius is what it is. Linkin Park sorta gets the sound right..

That looks like Ned predicted the "Enjoy the Silence" remix by that Linkin Park guy! Prescient!

mike h. (mike h.), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 14:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Speaking as one who has fairly direct contact with "nu-metal" fans (I own a guitar store. Nuff said.), I can tell you a little about said legacy.

Linkin Park is still beloved, but mostly by young female guitar players. I don't like them, but they seem to have broken down some of the "geetar ain't for girls" stigma, and if that's their legacy, god bless 'em. None of my genres of choice have pulled that off...

As for the others, Korn/Limp Biskit are dead in the water, Mudvayne/SLipknot have some following, and SOAD is by far the most name-checked and anticipated thing going right now. The progression has swung overall in two directions.

1. Slayer/Metallica (nothing new here), rediscovery of Sepultura, and a HUGE Pantera upswing due to the unfortunate Dimebag deal. In other words, a look to the past.

2. The heavier side of things: Lamb Of God, Opeth, Mastadon, The Haunted, Shadows Fall, even Pig Destroyer. At first, this confused me, and then I was flipping through channels and saw Headbangers Ball on MTV2, and realized the source for this...if you want to know what the pitch of the future is for disgruntled youth, that's a good place to start.

So the kids are surviving...I always figured that any genre that accepted a name that was designed to make it look stupid (nu w/umlauts? How about rechristening emo as "em:(0"?) was doomed to fail. Still, dying genres usually serve one purpose...the things that were worthwhile are remembered, and the rest go away forever. Blame the record industry for seeing a trend (Punk, New Wave, Grunge, Rave, Ska, Swing/Big Band, Industrial "Rock", Nu-metal, Pop-punk, ad infinitum), thinking that kids are dumb enough to buy what you tell them to, glutting the market, and killing whatever "scene" was there in the first place.

John Justen (johnjusten), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 15:58 (twenty-one years ago)

I presume P.O.D. are D.I.T.W. now too?

$V£N! (blueski), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 16:06 (twenty-one years ago)

"We were only following orders!"

Myonga Von Bontee (Myonga Von Bontee), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 16:06 (twenty-one years ago)

I presume P.O.D. are D.I.T.W. now too?
-- $V£N! (stevem7...), May 11th, 2005.

Oh yes...actually, the christian connection killed them from the start here at the store. The little minions don't like the god-rock so much...

John Justen (johnjusten), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 17:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Twizt'd, Staind, Trapt, Dredgd etc. . . . . the future will scratch its head at these odd past participle constructions.

Drew Daniel (Drew Daniel), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 17:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Basically you're telling me that the POD/Stryper tour is never going to happen?

(On a more serious note, I was very entertained that a self-described Christian band would release "Youth Of The Nation" as a single.)

The Ghost of ROCK OUT FOR JESUS (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 17:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Staind, now THERE'S a band. Not even bad enough to hate, just dull as ditchwater.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 17:21 (twenty-one years ago)

If Staind had been a one-hit wonder, they would have been awesome.

(I might be overstating for rhetorical effect there.)

The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 17:22 (twenty-one years ago)

Staind - now weren't they all the elements of Korn except without ANY hip-hop or funk or slap-bass and just the whiney "Dadddddyyyy... Why didn't you give me any pockkeettt moooonnneeeeyyy?" left over?

dog latin (dog latin), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 17:36 (twenty-one years ago)

that guy's voice was terrible.

The Good Dr. Bill (The Good Dr. Bill), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 17:43 (twenty-one years ago)

Staind's first song - Mudshovel - was a rocker more in the Korn vibe....they didn't do the all-power-ballad-all-the-time thing until after that ridiculous live video where Fred is sitting onstage with him....

M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 17:45 (twenty-one years ago)

I try not to let this kind of thing get to me but I still remember being annoyed that Tool's Lateralus (deservedly) went number one and then a week or two later freakin' Staind went to number one with twice as many sales. Clowns.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 17:46 (twenty-one years ago)

I do kinda like "Outside"---nu-metal was sorely lacking in power ballads, though, so I guess I took what I could get. Besides that and the far superior "The Reason," what is there, really?

The Good Dr. Bill (The Good Dr. Bill), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 17:47 (twenty-one years ago)

rediscovery of Sepultura

I can understand that. I saw them a few months ago (opening for Motörhead) and I was amazed how good they were, I had given up on ten years ago after their atrocious post-"Arise" direction - they've dropped most of that, and 90% of their set was the good thrash stuff: "Troops Of Doom", "Inner Self", "Mass Hypnosis", "Escape To The Void", "Beneath The Remains", etc. Fantastic stage presence and great sound too.

Siegbran (eofor), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 18:05 (twenty-one years ago)

i'm not sure what the people big into the likes of (hed PE), Murder Dolls and Disturbed are into now - presumably Mars Volta and S.O.A.D. still?

The crowd of rowdy kids in black t-shirts, chains and baggy pants outside Irving Plaza for the System of a Down show the other day points to YES.

Ian John50n (orion), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 18:21 (twenty-one years ago)

The kids that were into Slipknot and Korn in 2000 either listen to Shadows Fall or listen to The Kills now. In either case, almost all of them are in denial of it having ever happened or having been fans. Those who still are fans fall into the REO Speedwagon/Survivor territory.

Alan Conceicao (Alan Conceicao), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 18:28 (twenty-one years ago)

bring back thrash/speedmetal and i'm all for it

kingfish maximum overdrunk (Kingfish), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 18:29 (twenty-one years ago)

> Trapt

Gawd, there's a name I haven't heard in a while. They had a song on the singles chart for, like, a YEAR not too long ago, and for the life of me I can't think of the name or how it went.

> Staind

I just heard "It's Been Awhile" on the radio the other day: Is his voice really like that (abrupt movements from note to note) or is that the most auto-pitch-corrected single ever?

Joseph McCombs (Joseph McCombs), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 18:58 (twenty-one years ago)

I've always found hardcore metal fans loyalty and indifference to whether the mainstream thought metal was "cool" at the time very admirable.

M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 19:00 (twenty-one years ago)

I like how when you search for "Limp Bizkit" on allmusic you get to choose if you meant the rock band limp bizkit, or the classical band limp bizkit.

VER ARE YOUR PAPERS, Wednesday, 11 May 2005 19:05 (twenty-one years ago)

I just heard "It's Been Awhile" on the radio the other day: Is his voice really like that (abrupt movements from note to note) or is that the most auto-pitch-corrected single ever?

IT'S REALLY LIKE THAT. It's completely fucked up.

The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 19:20 (twenty-one years ago)

>Tool's Lateralus (deservedly) went number one

God, that album sucked. It sounded like outtakes from the previous album's sessions. I mean, sure, fine, they have an identifiable style. But to come back after five years away sounding exactly the same? Nope, sorry.

pdf (Phil Freeman), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 19:34 (twenty-one years ago)

bring back thrash/speedmetal and i'm all for it

The self-conscious thrash/speed retrometal revival is now in its, what, 9th year now? (Gehennah "Hardrocker", Infernö "Utter Hell" and Bewitched "Diabolical Desecration" being the ones to have kicked it off proper).

I'm really surprised how long it takes these day for "grassroots" new developments in metal to become mainstream, as opposed to, say, NWOBHM in the late 70s/early 80s or Metallica/Megadeth in the mid 80s. The Gothenburg sound took a good 10 years to break into the metal charts with In Flames, Dark Tranquillity and Soilwork.

This in contrast with the speedy rise of nu-metal, which had zero presence in any underground scene and was suddenly everywhere due to the big labels embracing Ross Robinson's concept, selecting suitable bands (moulding post-grunge bands like Korn into the new sound) and pushing it through top-down.

Siegbran (eofor), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 19:53 (twenty-one years ago)

I've always found hardcore metal fans loyalty and indifference to whether the mainstream thought metal was "cool" at the time very admirable.
-- M@tt He1geson (matt@game[remove]informer.com), May 11th, 2005.

Agreed. Also, unlike most of us indie-fux, they don't abandon a band/genre due to it's mainstream popularity.

John Justen (johnjusten), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 20:47 (twenty-one years ago)

But to come back after five years away sounding exactly the same?

Except even better! Yay! (It was my fave album of that year.)

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 20:48 (twenty-one years ago)

>Agreed. Also, unlike most of us indie-fux, they don't abandon a band/genre due to it's mainstream popularity.<

I'll be the first to disagree with that. It happens with regularity.

Alan Conceicao (Alan Conceicao), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 20:53 (twenty-one years ago)

I'll be the first to disagree with that. It happens with regularity.

-- Alan Conceicao (deadandrestles...), May 11th, 2005.

Um, I'm willing to be convinced, but I would need some examples...

John Justen (johnjusten), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 21:07 (twenty-one years ago)

EXAMPLES????????????????????????? Why don't you ask for the moon while you're at it?

The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 21:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Prime example: The attitude by those within death metal towards Cannibal Corpse, who are seen as being "commercialized death metal", even though half the scene practically copies them verbatim.

Alan Conceicao (Alan Conceicao), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 21:40 (twenty-one years ago)

People sorta got pissed at Priest for Turbo, but then they we all made up and hugged after Painkiller! It was a real touching scene. I liked Turbo all along, but I just wanted in on a group snuggle with all the Priest fans across the globe. Suckers!

M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 21:44 (twenty-one years ago)

>People sorta got pissed at Priest for Turbo, but then they we all made up and hugged after Painkiller!

Once again the totally underrated Ram It Down gets ignored...

pdf (Phil Freeman), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 23:01 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm sorry! I like Ram it Down too! It just seemed like it wasn't that accepted as Painkiller was.

M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 23:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Prime example: The attitude by those within death metal towards Cannibal Corpse, who are seen as being "commercialized death metal", even though half the scene practically copies them verbatim.
-- Alan Conceicao (deadandrestles...), May 11th, 2005.


Um. I think the Cannibal Corpse detractors may be dealing with a different "mainstream popularity" than I was referring to. I'm talking the "I love the White Stripes. Oh wait, "Fell in love with a girl" is on MTV...must...hide...cd's" indie reaction. Admittedly, people fell off the Metallica bandwagon pretty fast around "Load", but that's probably because it was a godawful pile of crap.

I have a secret fond spot in my heart for Turbo, if only because it's fun to hear how many syllables Rob Halford can squeeze out of the word "guidance" in "Parental Guidance", BTW.

John Justen (johnjusten), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 23:52 (twenty-one years ago)

admittedly, people fell off the Metallica bandwagon pretty fast around "Load", but that's probably because it was a godawful pile of crap.

Metallica was popular way before Load, though...at least for me, the "One" video took them mainstream and I still thought it was a great song, video, etc...I think the mass exodus after Load was just good old common sense.

M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 23:58 (twenty-one years ago)

>Um. I think the Cannibal Corpse detractors may be dealing with a different "mainstream popularity" than I was referring to. I'm talking the "I love the White Stripes. Oh wait, "Fell in love with a girl" is on MTV...must...hide...cd's" indie reaction. Admittedly, people fell off the Metallica bandwagon pretty fast around "Load", but that's probably because it was a godawful pile of crap.<

A different level, sure. But still the same thing. Hell, just poke around the metal boards and livejournal. People go nuts about Dimmu Borgir's commercial success, which consists of what? A couple TV appearances in Norway and a main stage opening gig on Ozzfest? Metal fans are the *worst* when it comes to this aspect of their fanship, because any slight commercial interest, whether on request of the band or not, is seen as an act of selling out.

Alan Conceicao (Alan Conceicao), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 23:59 (twenty-one years ago)

I think the reason you guys don't agree on this is the difference between the - let's say for the lack of a better term "true metal" crowd and the "hard rock/pop metal" crowd.

Death, thrash, black, etc, I would essentially say the music and audience is descended from the classic Euro-metal - i.e. Sabbath>Rainbow>NWOBHM>Thrash>etc etc....this crowd, I think as Alan rightly says, is very very bitter at anyone leaving their little world and that is perceived as "selling out" or - worse - dilluting the true "power" or whatever of the metal....Hence, you get the Cannibal Corspe thing or Priest after Turbo (although Priest straddled the line between both camps)...

Nu-Metal- in my mind- is descended from 80s pop metal, and 70s hard rock before that...That crowd seems to LIKE their favorite artist to be HUGE, like Motely Crue or Limp for awhile or Kid Rock...they get off on the hugeness, the oversize spectacle, the huge hooks, etc....Often they see the popularity as a positive, and will dismiss detractors with things like "Oh yeah well no cares about your shitty punk music [insert whatever genre here], while MILLIONS of people LOVE KORN".....I think this is the crowd that John is talking about, the one that has no hangups about "selling out"*


*in one of his more lucid moments Klosterman talks about this to great affect in Fargo Rock City, where he basically says that punk/indie tried to let kids that felt outcast that it was OKAY and SPECIAL to be outcasts (a sign of superiority), metal convinced outcasts that they WEREN'T OUTCASTS AT ALL, that they were a part of the metal nation, the KISS Army, too cool to be a part of the popular kids at school that couldn't rock like they could.

M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Thursday, 12 May 2005 00:12 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, I see your point. I think that the insular sub-sub-culture in any fringe genre is pretty ignorant in that respect, now that you mention it. Straight-edge punks outing secret smoking instances in band members, those dumb bitch-ass punks who beat up Jello Biafra a few years ago, undie hip-hop kids decrying Atmosphere for signing to Epitaph, etc.

I guess that what I was referring to is not the underground metalheads I know (who, when I think of it, are pretty high on the gossipy-housewife foodchain of music geeks), but the kids that are freaking out about the fact that Nile is available at Best Buy, or that Children of Bodom were on MTV2 last night. I think I'm just a sucker for starry-eyed enthusiasm about music, and I never see a band get it in the indie scenester camp once any sort of commercial success is achieved.

Sorry, Xpost, this is in reaction to Matt (although some of the above applies), I think you're right, but the kids I'm talking are in some grey area in between the two schools above. Which is why I like them. The kids I deal with that are most guilty of the hard rock/pop metal "The masses have spoken" justification are largely pop-punk Blink 182/Green Day fans. Which, an aging punky/alternative whatever, makes me sort of queasy.

Part of the difference also is that I'm not sure that the metal/nu-metal kids ever get to be "cool". In high school, even when everyone is listening to Korn (or Motley Crue, Metallica, Marilyn Manson, depending on era), the kids wearing the Korn etc. T-shirts are always dirtbags, druggies, or future Columbine gunmen. Which sorta sucks...

John Justen (johnjusten), Thursday, 12 May 2005 00:32 (twenty-one years ago)

>in one of his more lucid moments Klosterman talks about this to great affect in Fargo Rock City, where he basically says that punk/indie tried to let kids that felt outcast that it was OKAY and SPECIAL to be outcasts (a sign of superiority), metal convinced outcasts that they WEREN'T OUTCASTS AT ALL, that they were a part of the metal nation, the KISS Army, too cool to be a part of the popular kids at school that couldn't rock like they could.<

Interestingly, the metal scene began to co-opt the indie/punk side in the underground from about the mid 1980s on, eventually forming the basis for the "black metal elite" and so on. Not that its surprising, given that the key folks from this time period were regularly listening to both hardcore and thrash/early death metal.

>I guess that what I was referring to is not the underground metalheads I know (who, when I think of it, are pretty high on the gossipy-housewife foodchain of music geeks), but the kids that are freaking out about the fact that Nile is available at Best Buy, or that Children of Bodom were on MTV2 last night.<

A lot of those are new kids to the scene. That's not meant to be insulting or anything; as a matter of fact, I wish I could see things through their rather untarnished eyes. Given more time, you'll see the bitterness grow as the popularity of metal continues unabated. Metal has always been a very insular, nonsocial scene, and its almost certain to fraction and stay that way (even if it doesn't move forward musically very much).

Alan Conceicao (Alan Conceicao), Thursday, 12 May 2005 00:58 (twenty-one years ago)


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