Is actually possible to "listen" to music ironically?

what can i say, i was shallow.

Is THAT ironic?

I like Poison's Open Up and Say Aaahhh. I certainly don't conduct my life according to the hedonistic principles espoused therein, but I respect their right to do so. I can appreciate and even enjoy voyeuristically the little glimpse into their world on offer. I like the way the riff for "Talk Dirty to Me" uses that little half-step slide into the chord so endemic of '77 style punk rawk.

Isn't that *historically*, not ironically?

But this irony thing seems to come up more with movies than music. "You gotta see ____, it's so bad it's GREAT." Probably not irony, but guilt/rationalization for enjoying something another part of you says is uncool.

Ironically, yes. Ironically no.
-- nickalicious ([email protected]), Today.

I think you two are mistaking an irony for a paradox.

Unless you're doing so deliberately to illustrate the way in which many people use a different definition of the word 'irony' to the one in most dictioanaries.

Rockists use "socratic irony" (1) ! This is my scientific discovery of the week. They also speak with (2) often for no good reason. Their claim to like "real" music which leads them to dismiss actual good music is an example of "dramatic irony" (3).

I feel like a high school english student.

Juicebox: "Europe's 'Final Countdown' rocks like a motherfucker!" *makes devil sign*

Martin: "Given my political leanings, my erudition, and my campaign to save the whales, it is amazing how much pleasure I am deriving from these morally repugnant blues records." *slaps forehead*

"listening ironically" is a different thing as is i think "liking ironically" both of which strike me as fundamentally meaningless phrases like "sleeping empirical"

1- Liking something even though (or even because) it contains certain weaknesses that you are very suspectible to (excessive grandeur, overtly naive political sloganeering, wimpy overtly poetic woe-is-me lyrics, etc) and expresses them to the fullest extent. You are able to laugh at yourself for being so suspectible to these traits, yet there is nothing very "ironic" about your love of the music itself.

2- Liking something as comedy- I suppose that's just another way of interpreting a piece of art, which is never a bad thing as far as I know. Progressive Rock would be a good example here- things like "The Battle Of Epping Forest" by Genesis are on a level with The Bonzo Dog Band for me, even though they (probably, maybe) weren't meant that way.

"It's so irony, it's ferrous!!!"

Irony in this sense does occur in pop music (when performers become involved in self-parody, deliberate kitch etc).

But "ironic" now seems to get used to refer to a quality of the audience, independent of the intention of the performer. To like, say, Britney Spears "ironically" it is not necessary for HER to intend more than one meaning, it's enough for the audience to read a secondary meaning - campness, self-parody, deliberate bad taste etc - into her performance, and to respond to this meaning in the same way as a theatre audience does in the case of an unconsciously ironic character.

I don't think this is "irony" in the usual sense of the word. But it is close to Daniel's first definition. It's a technique allowing elements normally regarded as flaws - vulgarity, sentimentality, unearned emotion - to be neutralised or even turned into strengths, sources of added amusement. (At a price of course: an often irritating audience smugness, and a blurring of the distinction between good and bad (if the "bad" elements in otherwise good work can be transmuted into gold, why not transmute pure dross into gold?).

No reason why this technique can't be employed while "listening".

I think Camp has become subtle though, over the years. It's no longer John Waters beehives and drag queens, more low cut jeans and Neptunes.

Also "vulgarity, sentimentality, unearned emotion" means what exactly? Like I've never regarded these as flaws per se just y'know, qualities. (and who sez if you've earned emotion or not -- is there some emotion management and expenditures department you have to report into and punch grief timecards for or what?).

Arf arf I think you're describing someone who might say "Ironically, I like it" but this is different than "I like it and listen to it ironically"

I concluded that whether you can "listen ironically" is a question of semantics. I don't think you can if you accept the traditional dictionary definition of the term. But the meaning of language changes with use, and if you accept that recent usage of the meaning of "ironically" has in effect extended the meaning of the word to encompass the response of the listener irrespective of the intentions of the artist then I see no reason why the listener can't listen ironically.

I haven't described the attitude of someone who says "Ironically, I like it". In the sense of the word (I think) you mean, there is no need to attempt to neutralise reasons for not-liking or to transmute them into positives. Just finding that reasons for not-liking are outweighed by reasons for liking would be enough. It's a much less interesting/subtle concept and doesn't need any change to the dictionary definition of ironic.

Actually, I think they're confusing Irony with Cheese.

Can one turn on a stereo ironically?

"If people can like music "ironically", can their awareness that their perspective is ironic arise at the point of first listening, or is it something that is imposed ex post facto".

Since I am arguing that you CAN listen ironically that would suggest that "listening ironically" is not transitional (in the sense that the initial perception may be the same as the final one). Obviously that has to be hedged about with observations that the listening experience is itself dynamic/transitional and that all judgements may be subject to continual revision: but those factors are there whether on "listens ironically" or not.

For instance, say somebody's pumpin' Eminem from a boombox and you turn on Belle & Sebastain but LOUDER!

(the second opinion/analysis might also be received, of course, but it still has to be different and you still have to be in motion)

i guess if you wanted you could reserve "ironic" here for getting STUCK at the holding stage, like a plane circling the airport, but then you're still acknowledging the basic dynamism, just admitting that ppl take different lengths of time to make the journey

So I think ironic liking is always a bad thing (I'm not that much of a puritan) though it'd still be nice to see less of it.

BUMP! To have a conversation with M.V. (and whoever else) that doesn't tie up the Worth It in 2010thread:

ILXOR proposed that what I liked about Ke$ha is that she's "so bad she's good." I denied this, and said such a claim implies that I like Ke$ha with ironic distance, which I do not. ILXOR denied that implication, which is fine. I'd contend that ironic distance is embedded in the phrase "so bad she's good," at least the way we commonly use it.

But then, as an aside UNRELATED to Ke$ha, I said: "FWIW, I'm a big fan of ironic distance. If Nabakov can do it as a writer, why can't I do it as a music fan? I tend to hear untrustworthy narrators in a lot of music, probably where the artists didn't intend them, and this has added considerably to my enjoyment of music over the years. So even liking something with ironic distance isn't necessarily bad."

M.V. said: "Well, because Nabokov's ironic distance is creative, authorial and intrinsic; it's an element of the work. You can employ ironic distance in your appreciative stance all you like, and even create brilliantly ironic criticism that alters the way others see the work, but the song is the song. Ke$ha et al are the song's Nabokovs, not you."

First off, I admit I've only skimmed the top of this thread, and there's some deep thinkers up there, so forgive me if I'm retreading anything.

Second, I disagree with you, M.V., on a couple fronts. I don't understand the difference between my unacceptable use of ironic distance ("as a music fan," hearing untrustworthy narrators against artists' intent), and your acceptable uses ("in your appreciative stance," creating "brilliantly ironic criticism"). It seems like you're splitting hairs. If I hear an untrustworthy narrator but don't tell anybody about it, isn't that the same as Nabakov thinking up an untrustworthy narrator but not sharing it with anyone? Whereas, if he actually creates Humbert Humbert or I "alter how others see a work," we're both carrying our ironic distance to fruition, yes?

Also, I disagree that "the song is the song." Of course words and recordings exist in original unchanging configurations, but insofar as ambiguity is built into those words and recordings, and insofar as they hit the ears of a variety of people with wildly divergent life experiences, the meanings of those words and recordings change. That's why "I Can See Clearly Now" could be a song of comfort and hope for me when I was having bad days in grade school, but smart successful Moby heard it as the futile self-affirmation of a twelve-stepper, doomed to relapse as soon as the song ends. (That's from some decade-old interview I can't cite.) Or why "Irreplaceable" can be a girl-power anthem that means what it says, or an indication that Beyonce's about to fall apart but won't let herself admit it.

Don't those readings represent music fans employing ironic distance in their fandom? And aren't they creative? Maybe even "intrinsic," since we're not altering the original texts of the songs we're hearing ironically.

Is it ironic distance if it's a genuine reading of the thing's [song, movie, etc...] meaning, even if it is different from someone else's?
To me, ironic distance implies there is a canonical reading that is undesirable and must be attenuated somehow.

I also don't think this is necessarily bad, especially if there is good reason to find the canonical reading undesirable, but maybe a better strategy is to divest yourself of the terrible thing altogether? (I can see where if you are besieged by this terrible thing, say a pop song that is a co-worker's ringtone, ironic distance is a necessary coping mechanism)

http://terminallaughter.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/closet.jpg

perfect post

Ah, good taste! What a dreadful thing. Taste is the enemy of creativity. - Pablo Picasso

if everything is terrible, then nothing is

What's in bad taste about R. Kelly? (w/r/t In the Closet I mean)

I'm a little unclear about how a passive activity like listening can be done ironically. "Irony" to me as a qualifier seems to require some type of expressive act as a referent - some information can be expressed ironically when there is intentional misdirection or subtext. I guess the act of listening could be interpreted as expressing something if someone is observing my act of listening. Usually the act of listening implies that I enjoy the music - and so if I don't actually enjoy it, I'm listening to it ironically. Is that it? Or perhaps by "listening ironically" people simply mean expressing ironic opinions wrt something I've listened to.

Listening and visibly enjoying something ironically is an expressive act, usually accompanied by ironic dancing. Like how the miner guy in Moon is spaz-jigging to "Walking on Sunshine"

Or perhaps it means appreciating music ironically - as in appreciating music in the opposite way than the creator supposedly intended. For example, enjoying a death metal song because the cookie-monster vocals make you laugh is ironic, because the creator presumably intended them to be scary. I guess this doesn't require an outside observer - it's a purely internal experience. I guess this is more what people are getting at.

http://coolaggregator.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/drphil1.jpg

we meet again

http://coolaggregator.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/drsfeelandphil.jpg

Flipper
Killdozer

Foogazi

http://terminallaughter.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/closet.jpg

is awesome. After part 12, the additional parts he did: suck. The lyrics, delivery and melodies are really terrible.

ILXOR proposed that what I liked about Ke$ha is that she's "so bad she's good." I denied this, and said such a claim implies that I like Ke$ha with ironic distance, which I do not. ILXOR denied that implication, which is fine. I'd contend that ironic distance is embedded in the phrase "so bad she's good," at least the way we commonly use it.

Just when I thought it was over...

is this a so-bad-it's-gotta-be-good thing? I can't see another way around it...

For the record, this was my original proposal.

Not sure I'm going to jump into this again; will sit on the sidelines for now.

my favorite part of this is "7 years pass..."

For instance, say somebody's pumpin' Eminem from a boombox and you turn on Belle & Sebastain but LOUDER!

I did something like this once. Summer day, driving with windows down, listening to a classical station, a car pulls alongside us blasting hiphop. I turned to them, said "Oh yeah? Check this out!" and cranked up the radio and the violins swelled but there was no bass so I'm not sure the people in the other car could even hear it. The guys in the back seat of my car laughed & I think appreciated it as an ironic gesture. But the irony there was more in the playing than the listening.

I think o. nate has it right here; camp needs an audience, or at least an imagined audience, there to appreciate the clever re-reading.

This seems right. Could you appreciate music "ironically" if you were alone on a desert island? Probably not. I feel like at this point, "ironic" enjoyment of something boils down to, "I enjoy this, but I don't think I could defend it as 'good' even if I wanted to." People ready to defend Ke$ha as good are enjoying it the regular way I think.

Of course words and recordings exist in original unchanging configurations, but insofar as ambiguity is built into those words and recordings, and insofar as they hit the ears of a variety of people with wildly divergent life experiences, the meanings of those words and recordings change.

this is OTM - I agree with you dr. phil, keep on truckin