can morally reprehensible traits result in great music?

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to answer your thread question, yes. Lots of great music is founded on nihilism, which I find reprehensible but can be cathartic, as long as I assume the singer is "protesting too much." Iggy Pop isn't really that down all the time, but maaan, when he's DOWN.... that kinda thing.

I'm a strong believer that pop music is where we can let our little fantasy devils come out to play. The problem is when the ugliness isn't cathartic. What's a good example...um, for me that song by Blink 182 about how he needs a Girl that he can train does it for me. I can take a million "shut up, bitch/asshole" songs but wishing they could dehumanize somebody...ick.

Daniel, what you're complaining about is one of the main arbiters of taste. If a song has lyrics, the way those lyrics affect you are entirely valid for deciding whether or not you like it. If it seems you have a hypocritical take on it, look deeper and there's probably some other difference that makes one tolerable and one not. If not, maybe its just a mood and you'll be fine with the song later.

I have no problem distancing artwork from an artist... I like some NON records, that doesn't mean that I'd invite Boyd over for drinks.

but who's to say that beck isn't in character (although it sounds like his lyrics have taken quite a leap from "in the time of chimpanzees i was a monkey" on some old forgotten bongload records 7")... shame on daniel for assuming the voice and character of the lyrics is the author. or has beck become very confessional these days?

& he's probably more reverent and respectful of Missy than anyone else on that album.

But sometimes being 'immoral' just becomes boring. I've been told that people who use "fuck" too much do it because they aren't smart enough to come up with a more interesting word.

It should also be noted that the reasons for disliking Avril's songs (which is different from disliking her for her tie or intelligence during interviews) is usually more "complicated" than disliking other teen-pop star's songs. Lavigne's songs usually have more unique details, observations. But like many country songs, for me those observations can be kinda off-putting. But when compared to crap like Vanessa Carlton's "Pretty Baby" it's kinda impressive.

He doesn't really think she's a lost cause. He has to think she's a lost cause. It's ugly, but it's coping, it's defense. When emotions pile up so high that you can't ignore them anymore, sometimes the only thing you can do is smash them with a giant sweep of your arm. It's only one of the stages of the break-up presented on the album -- there's also regret and self-effacement. It's what we all go through when we lose someone that truly hurts us.

And, as you kinda pointed out, it's nowhere near as cruel as "Idiot Wind." Only Dylan included the self-effacement right in the same song, and Beck spreads the process out further across the album.

And as for his ex hearing it and being offended -- well, shit. She knows what he does for a living.

This is complex. Someimes I find an arrogant musician to be quite charming and funny which makes me like their music more. Other times they will speak such utter garbage that i will be unable to listen to anything else they record without wanting to turn the record off. For example when i heard Billy Corgan I was instantly repulsed wheras mark e Smith was wonderful. I do think that it is good for people to believe in themselves. I suppose in some poeples case the words just don't match the picture. Interviews/ biography and background shouldn't effect the music that you hear but sometimes they just do. Can't help it.

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I opened this thread feeling like I had a hundred things to say, but it turns out I've never really translated my internal reactions into anything resembling English. So all I'll say is that at best it's only an occasional issue with me for the simple fact that I'd have to disregard a lot of my favorite music if it were anything more. And since I can't see myself exclusively listening to accidental music recorded by outsiders, I'll have to settle for dudes who do it to get laid or have some insecurities that require they constantly re-validate their ego somehow (and so on, whatever whatever...)

The biography/story behind the music can become an equal part of the music, for better or worse, and for me I guess it's really part of the romance a good lot of the time. Just a matter of where you personally draw the line, I suppose.

I opened this thread feeling like I had a hundred things to say, but it turns out that the opening post was probably one of the worst in the history of ILM

And that's some history, right?

I thought Lost Cause was about Winona Ryder? The only artist I've ever listened to less because of any trait was Beck - when I found out he was a Scientologist.

Yeah that opening post was just a spiral.

How morally reprehensible can these traits be if they result in great piles of money music?

But then there's that Missy Elliot sample: "don't copy me, don't copy me!" she says repeatedly in this song, and already I feel a bit queasy. Then it turns into an increasingly whiny "copy me!" until it ends in this long, pseudo-orgasmic moan of "coooopy meeee". It's aural rape, pure and simple, and it makes me sick to my stomach.

uh....what?

http://991.com/newGallery/Hearsay-Pure-And-Simple-354284.jpg

The following line or two about rap music didn't clear anything up either. (xp)

Haha, yeah guys I was like sixteen, don't worry it's all nonsense.

In Sk8r Boi Avril has a go at the ballet girl because she didn't "see the soul that is inside" of the sk8r boi in question, and yet Avril herself is quite happy to reduce the ballet girl to a one-dimensional cliché without attempting to see the soul that is inside her, which proves that Avril is a nasty little presumptious indie witch hell-bent on perpetuating the myth that townies = soulless fucks and therebye maintaining the status quo of teen class warfare!

Except that now she's swapped sides, and in the video for Girlfriend she's terrorising the non-conformist. Doesn't make her any less of a nasty little witch...but it does raise the narrative voice/authorship issue yet again.

I think people with morally reprehensible traits may be able to make great music regardless of said traits.
See my ambivalence over the Skillet Lickers (and other old-timey musicians) and the use of racial slurs on the old time thread.

Yeah, these days it's pretty clear to me that pretty reprehensible traits can make for pretty great aesthetic experiences. Which is a diferent thing entirely from whether bad/messed up ppl can make good art (I don't think I had any doubts on that count even when I started the thread - Ike Turner etc.)

can morally reprehensible traits result in pretty photos?
can morally reprehensible traits result in tasty food?
can morally reprehensible traits result in comfortable clothes?
can morally reprehensible traits result in funny jokes?
can morally reprehensible traits result in engaging books?
can morally reprehensible traits result in solid bridges?
can morally reprehensible traits result in the Giants covering the spread?

yes