"Silence as a musical instrument"

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On the Scout Niblett hate thread started by Alex in NYC, Jerry sez: "This Scout Niblett mini-album is stark, affecting, minimal and makes use of silence as a musical instrument in a way I've rarely heard before." Not to pick on Jerry, but, you know, I hear this "silence as an instrument" line paraded around all the time ("wow, listen to him play those silences", "what he *doesn't* play is just as important as what he does, get it?", etfuckingcet.). What does this really mean, though? The Dave Q side of me wants to say, hey, anyone who even remotely agrees with this should be forced to listen to Francisco Lopez until they start eating their own limbs. If you think "noise music" has ceased to wield any sort of avant-garde surprise power, just try listening to "silence music"! Wow, you have to listen so *close* -- it's so rewarding! About as rewarding as licking a plate that a piece of lasagna once touched!

What does it mean to say that someone makes use of silence, anyway? I've said it before, but I'm not sure exactly what I meant.

― Clarke B., Thursday, 23 January 2003 09:02 (twenty-three years ago)

well I think I would have to read John Cage's book to properly ans this but i haven't got round to it.

This relates to the earplugs threads: when you fill the hall with noise and loudness your body physically reacts in novel ways. it tries to accomodate for this. its offering new experiences and I think in the same way, v quiet music (near silence) can do that.

Just in the way you have to concentrate hard to pick out 'things' from the layers of noise so you have to stretch yourself to hear near quietness. the room has to be quiet as conversation can distract, you can't move as much when you're hearing quiet music.

OK I haf nevah heard francisco lopez.

I think the thing to say is that silence doesn't exist. it can only get so quiet. so acoustic sounds are bought out when that happens, and if any 'noise' can be music then there you go (so ignore all the above if you wish, it was just ranting at 9 am).

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Thursday, 23 January 2003 09:46 (twenty-three years ago)

generally i don't think people use it just for things that are explicitly concerned with volume matters cf guhnter, lopez (doesn't he do noise and silent? also yeah i know they're not just about the volume but gimme a break) but more for its use in the composition of something more everyday. to what extent silence is an oblique way of saying quiet, and how a big block of pure silence might bleed through into the rest?

i do sympathise with yr anger at people saying this like it's the biggest zen master jedi mind trick though. "oh!! see i was listening to the music!"

― zemko (bob), Thursday, 23 January 2003 09:55 (twenty-three years ago)

this thread reminds me of the end of that amm gig (i imagine every amm gig) where they have stopped and mull around while the audience breathlessly sit trapped working out if it's over and when to clap... that was like the craziest axe-maniac anti/virtuoso thrash guitar solo i've ever heard

― zemko (bob), Thursday, 23 January 2003 10:00 (twenty-three years ago)

hehe...I like that description.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Thursday, 23 January 2003 10:01 (twenty-three years ago)

but yeah i think the way jerry means it like julio said; heightening awareness, concentrating what is being played, playing with the phenomenology of waiting

― zemko (bob), Thursday, 23 January 2003 10:12 (twenty-three years ago)

That actually sounds fascinating, though, Zemko, because of its theatricality. Confounding a live audience's expectations can be very worthwhile and affecting; it's another thing entirely to create, as Lopez does, recorded *artifacts* (not even recordings of live performances) which rely so heavily on actual silence. At least noise music, however sapped its avant garde credibility may be at this late date, presents something to you as a *listener* and not merely as a ponderer of the nature of listening. This is probably completely inaccurate, but it seems like Lopez based his entire career on a misreading of _4'33"_ -- on the misguided assumption that Cage's piece works as anything *but* a performance.

― Clarke B., Thursday, 23 January 2003 10:18 (twenty-three years ago)

If you think that all Francisco Lopez does is release CDs of silence, then you're the one doing the misreading (as well as the mishearing).

― hstencil, Thursday, 23 January 2003 15:10 (twenty-three years ago)

I feel bad for giving very incomplete info here, but some of you google-heads should be able to fill in the blanks. A very short while ago, late 2002, an English band was successfully sued by the Cage estate for their inclusion of a track of silence on their album.
The band in question didn't have to give up any money, merely give Cage a song-writing credit on the track (and thus, royalties, if there are any).
Don't remember the name of the band, but google John Cage, estate, lawsuit and maybe you'll get lucky.

So, John Cage literally owns this thread.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 23 January 2003 16:04 (twenty-three years ago)

Horace it was Mike Batt of The Wombles!

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 23 January 2003 16:04 (twenty-three years ago)

search for a thread called 'self-indulgent wankers' and i think you'll find a discussion on it.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Thursday, 23 January 2003 16:06 (twenty-three years ago)

if you want to find some fuck-awful writing abt music (which may or may not be good itself) go to lopez's own website: some of it's by him, some of it's by avant-arselickers

(i haven't read all of the site, the interview's only accessible on pdf)

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 23 January 2003 16:12 (twenty-three years ago)

There's a lot of ground between John Cage and Miles Davis. Using a few beats of rest is far from a conceptual piece about ambient sound. It's the space between notes that accents the played notes. Knowing when not to play is as important as knowing what notes to play.

― dave225 (Dave225), Thursday, 23 January 2003 16:17 (twenty-three years ago)

a link

http://www.franciscolopez.net/main.html

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Thursday, 23 January 2003 16:23 (twenty-three years ago)

there is a few essays on there. one of which is on cageian philosophy.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Thursday, 23 January 2003 16:27 (twenty-three years ago)

the sound of you reading them will be as follows:

*softly to self* "oh dear..."

*softly to world* "zzzzzzzzzzzz... "

*crickets*

*tumbleweed*

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 23 January 2003 16:33 (twenty-three years ago)

well I think it is good to read really bad stuff on this so that others don't carry out the same mistakes. only read the quotes from various articles. not promising.

have you read any good writing on cage mark? (well i think you said meltzer once)

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Thursday, 23 January 2003 16:39 (twenty-three years ago)

read cage himself for as start julio: he's a great writer even when he's talking manipulative nonsense

or maybe i shd finish my book!!

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 23 January 2003 16:55 (twenty-three years ago)

*nervous coughing, quickly hushed*

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 23 January 2003 16:58 (twenty-three years ago)

yes my local library has richard meltzer's 'aesthetics of rock', adorno's book on wagner and cage's 'silence' so as soon as I can get and read them then i can see (hopefully) good ILM discussions.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Thursday, 23 January 2003 17:10 (twenty-three years ago)

like dave225 says, it's a funny veer to start with scout niblett and jerry and then scream on francisco lopez.. how ya want it clarke? silence as instrument or silence as piece?

― zemko (bob), Thursday, 23 January 2003 18:36 (twenty-three years ago)

http://www.boblog111.com/images/trike.gif

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Friday, 24 January 2003 05:14 (twenty-three years ago)

generally i don't think people use it just for things that are explicitly concerned with volume matters cf guhnter, lopez

i thought mark was gonna talk bout the little breaks in jenny from the block

― Chupa-Cabras (vicc13), Friday, 24 January 2003 06:06 (twenty-three years ago)

mark would it be insensitive to ask if why you can't open PDFs on your computer?

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 24 January 2003 06:23 (twenty-three years ago)

acrobat suXOR!

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Friday, 24 January 2003 11:32 (twenty-three years ago)

eleven months pass...

do you know who jerry is? its everett true's pseudonym. the man who wheeled kurt cobain onto the stage at reading, legendary music critic and founder of Careless Talk Costs lives. dont argue with him.

― Flotsam of the Fishfolk (Flotsam of the Fishfolk), Sunday, 4 January 2004 22:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes, never argue with anyone who's ever done one tiny thing you respect.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Sunday, 4 January 2004 22:53 (twenty-two years ago)

every one whos ever been in a band knows that the most important piece of knowledge a musician has is when NOT to play. it can't be taught. i think this silence stuff is the art-school theorization of that. but i'm just be obvious, i suppose.

― Orbit (Orbit), Sunday, 4 January 2004 23:07 (twenty-two years ago)

oops who has
being

― Orbit (Orbit), Sunday, 4 January 2004 23:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes, Orbit's right. It's not so obscure a concept really. It's a sort of Occam's razor of music - cut out the superfluous stuff and be concise.

Anyone who's been in a band with an overplaying guitarist will understand.

― the music mole (colin s barrow), Monday, 5 January 2004 09:24 (twenty-two years ago)

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