Enunciating: Classic or Dud

nya mblumphngah

But if a singer is struggling really hard to make himself understood, and STILL failing, for whatever reason (physical inability to overcome crippling shyness, lack of familiarity with language, speech impediment etc) then it makes it even MORE poignant and gripping!

Enunciation is classic when the singer really hates the lyrics that have been written for him, and he's spitting them out to mock them.

We're so pretty oh so pretty....VACANT.

I like it when I can't make out the words.

Josh - would you say that about a movie?

Words are pretty unimportant to me most of the time, actually, so I don't actually have a problem with poor pronounciation.

I mean, honestly, the number 1 record on the ILM poll was "Loveless" by MBV. Has anyone honestly ever actually understood more than a QUARTER of the vocals (I'm not even going to say "words") on that record? Does that really make it less of a classic?

However, this can lead to pretty hillarious results - on a mailing list that several of us are on, someone recently posted the complete lyrics to "Fools Gold" by the Stone Roses, and the general reaction from most listees was "HUH?!?!? *that's* what he's on about?" as we'd only ever caught about a third of what he was saying.

Tracer - movies aren't music.

I agree that movies are not music. But why should the dialogue/monologue have different priorities in the sound mix? Is movie dialogue more important or more interesting than rock lyrics?

If I cared about enunciation, I'd probably be into Broadway musicals, not rock and roll.

If you've ever enjoyed a song in a language you didn't understand, then you know that knowing what the words are isn't necessary for the enjoyment of music.

But vocal commitment is. I have to know that they want me to understand. If their point gets across by growling, screaming, whispering, fine. But if somebody just half-asses their way thru a verse I wonder why they're singing? For something to do? I know in this age of reverbed close-miking volume does not always = commitment but something had better = it.

Oh, you mean vocal presence, then.

If the singer is trying to ACT like he doesn't care why he's there - well, that's a pretty adolescent thing to do. Which, of course, features in a lot of great music, if you ask most people.(Not me - I like it when the singer REALLY doesn't give a shit about his fans or why he's there, but then, I'm just an arsehole. Elvis in the 70s ["Way Down"!] - now that's BRILLIANT mush-mouth!)

I remember after the Pogues played on Saturday Night Live Dennis Miller said " They're good but I generally like LYRICS." What a cocky shitbag. I like when Joe Strummer said he was told by the producer he better PRONOUNCE every word and then Joe tried it and he was like bollox!I'm never doin that again!

Look at REM -- once you could make out what Michael Stipe was saying they instantly became less interesting, because other people's interpretations of his lyrics were much better than what he was actually saying.

I like it when you can't make out all the lyrics, most of the time. If it's just because it was poorly recorded, I'm not a fan.

movie dialogue is more important than music lyrics, yes. not in any "cultural importance" face-off, but dialogue is usually more integral to films than lyrics are to music: music can survive and thrive without lyrics; not too many films can get away without having dialogue (though, arguably, the oeuvres of truffaut and godard would be better without dialogue). the more apt comparison is between films and books.

Doesn't it depend on the act, too? I mean, one of the multiple reasons I hate Celine Dion is because she enunciates so badly, but her songs strike me as being in a genre where enunciation is something to strive for.

I mean, no one I know besides like myself and one other person actually can figure out what James Bradfield is saying 99.9% of the time, but I think it's down to the sheer volume of words combined with accent. And it works, a few people now have told me they like/liked the songs on the basis of trying to figure out what he was saying.

But trying to figure out what, say, Madonna is saying, would be lame. It depends on the song.

So I guess this a great big "I don't know" huh?

I think Madonna has some really great lyrics, although sometimes I can't make them out. Of course, that's when you make up your own that fit the flow of the song and just forget about the real ones.

Also, as much as Joy Division's lyrics get praised, I honestly don't listen for them that hard--I know snippets here and there, but a lot of the time, I just cannot tell what Curtis is saying. And I don't even care! They're so fucking amazing, it doesn't matter what he's saying, really. Well, within limits I guess. But I agree with Josh that it's often a neat experience not to be able to decipher lyrical content.

: all my favrite singers couldnt sing
silver jews

i prefer my female singers to sing clearly :
( Ute Lemper, Aimme Mann, Sally Simms,Tammy Wynette, Nina Simone)
But i want my male singers to sound off or craggy
( Bob Dylan, Tom Waits, Johnny Cash, Stephen Merrit, George Jones
in fact what i love best is sandpaper and velvet duets
You know crystal female singer and roughhewn male singer
( Tammy Wynette and George Jones, Joan Baez and Dylan, Stephen Merrit and Sally Simms)

once you could make out what Michael Stipe was saying they instantly became less interesting, because other people's interpretations of his lyrics were much better than what he was actually saying.

This is not a very strong argument for singing indistinctly.

i dimly remember adopting an aggressive pro-enunciation position after my fifth rum. in a more sober state, i am somewhat more moderate. i do really like loveless, chronic town, early swans, and a bit of hardcore, to give some examples, where lyrics are generally hard to decipher. (i have no trouble making out many earlier mbv lyrics). i don't think that the singers on these records don't care. it's more that they choose to signify with the sounds they make with their voices and that the semantic content of their lyrics is secondary. however, most of the time, i do like enunciation. thom yorke's swallowing of his consonants annoys me, as does billy corgan's.

i generally have no trouble hearing joy division lyrics, though i've heard a number of people do. i don't think that r.e.m. lyrics are at all indecipherable by the second album and even on much of the first. i mean, does anyone really have trouble hearing the words to "so central rain?"

but i really do have a problem with that godawful americanism of closing your throat as a substitute for actually enunciating "t"'s surrounded by vowels. "i got a co-on crown." aargh.

Congratulations, Sundar, you just got me to sit and repeatedly say "cotton" aloud for well over a minute.

LOUIE LOUIE!

By the Kingsmen, I mean.

The 'grain' or 'timbre' of the voice is important. Delivering the words with full-on strength and committment is cool when Nick Cave does it, not Zack de la Rocha.

"godawful americanism" = glottal stop (pr.glo[ ]al sto[ ] ) = not an americanism, especially (ever been to London, Sundar?)

AMERICANIAM?!?!? What, so the entire county of Essex has magically been transmigrated across the Atlantic?

Oh, and most regionally differently pronounced word? Probably "water". Varies from "Wor-er" to "wadder" to "what-ur" to god knows what.

1. SHIRLEY Sims. (Simms? Sim? Simm? Can never quite remember.) SALLY Timms.

2. *Totally* agree with Tracer Hand.

I suppose it's all context. What would a lot of punk rock be without the slurred vocals?

On the other hand, it seems to me that in hiphop, enunciating and really hitting the hard consonants helps the flow a lot, gives it rhythmic definition and makes it funkier (especially on fast phrases).

Clarke: No, I'm not saying that Madonna has crap lyrics that aren't worth figuring out. By saying that it'd suck to have to figure out what she's saying, I'm saying she doesn't have a style that lends itself well to confusion. Sometimes having to listen closely really holds up the song, it brings you in, makes you feel it more - that's not the case with Madonna.

pf understands and agrees!! so do I win??

Perhaps my favorite singer/songwriter of all time, Tom Waits, should be noted for enunciating very clearly at the same time as being famously gravelly and froggy. At least, I can understand almost every one of his words.

But Tracer - I *always* agree with you.

(writes Rattlesnakes on shopping list)