Moby Grape: Classic or Dud?

He used to be a drummer in local band in the early seventies that garnered a decent following, and in his less than spectacular decline into middle age, he lived in a sort of fugue state where those events were still happening. If you caught him in the right mood, he would tell you stories of his days in the band. He was also an avid collector of old vinyl.

His favorite band in the whole world was Moby Grape. Hence, I say Classic.

But listen, you folks have to hear THIS! One of the most blatant examples of plagarism I have EVER heard is Oasis's rip-off of the tune of Moby Grape's "He" (from "Wow") for What's The Story's "Cast No Shadow". I have never read about this anywhere, nor met anyone else who has spotted it, but I'm convinced that Noel must have copied. It's just too close to be true.

Someone have a listen and see if you agree.

Regarding Moby Grape, were they the first triple guitar assault band? Or does that honor go to the Buffalo Springfield? Anyway, "Fall On You" and "Indifference" are also great sing-a-longs... what was the story about the gross overhyping of that record by Columbia? Orchids dropped from the ceilings or something?

I'm gonna listen to that Oasis/Moby Grape comparison.. maybe those guys are owed some dough.

The orchid / Columbia thing - I do believe that Columbia Records, in the midst of some collective acid trip, decided to issue FIVE singles from Moby Grape's first album at the SAME TIME! They also threw some sort of record release / industry party where they had all this purple stuff flying everywhere - balloons, flowers, etc. Later on in the Grape's career, Columbia tried to boost interest in them by including an LP's worth of jamming (called Grape Jam) with a subsequent release. That didn't fly well, either.

Between those fiascos & Skip Spence chasing a bandmember with an axe while tripping, I'd have to say that Moby Grape is one band known more for their infamy than their music.

For what it's worth, the Golden Palominos (fronted by Michael Stipe) released a lackluster version of "Omaha" back in the '80s.

I first came across the Grape in the late 80s when my brother and I were discovering all things psychedelic. He bought the first album and raved about it but when I played it it did nothing for me at all, except for the strange little song at the end of side one ("Naked if I want to"). Around the same time he was insisting that the Stone Roses' debut album was superb, but all I could hear was third hand Byrds riffs (which I still believe).

Over the years the lure of the Grape came my way. Again, my brother had "Vintage", the double CD already mentioned. I listened again and thought it wasn't so bad now. Contrary as ever, my brother and I disagreed on the second disc, I claimed that the likes of "Bitter wind", "Rose coloured eyes" and "He" were far superior psych than anything on the first album. And to be honest I still agree with that. There's something creepy about those three songs, particularly the way they swerve, the orchestrations, it all seems very on-the- edge. This could of course become another thread about how half the music made by musicians on CBS in 1968 is amongst the best (and strangest) ever.

As to "Oar", again I agree with the person above, it is a real headphones album. Play it through speakers and half the time you won't notice it's there. On headphones it makes a real impact. Maybe I've falled for the hype, maybe not. The 'extra' tracks on the recent CD don't exactly add much, but the original LP is fine. And yes, I do like Syd Barrett's solo albums too....

But the Grape, like most bands, fixated on a bad mojo of too many drugs, too much hype and the fact that they were completely undisciplined in the studio. They weren't consistent enough songwriters to sustain things. But there are moments where is clicks when you listen. Just enough to make you wish they had gotten their shit together.

I've seen Miller play in Bay Area off and on for the last several years, there's still a little magic there. Not too many guys would have the cojones to strap on an L5 jazz guitar, turn up the Fender Super Reverb and make it sound like this completely oddball mixture of country swing and psychedelic blues. And he pulls it off every time.

"This much madness is too much sorrow"....different band, same sentiment.

T

Wait, which thread is this again?

And so I give my ten-other-than-debut, which isn't as hard as it might seem:

Goin' Down to Texas (from "20 Granite Creek")
Truly Fine Citizen
What's to Choose
Murder in My Heart for the Judge
Skip's Song
Indifference (live Monterey Popfest from this boot I got, "Long Gone"--pretty incredible version)
Just Like Gene Autry
Hoochie
Trucking Man

So everybody's sounded off on Skip Spence's LP. What about that album by Bob Mosley?

I just want to say that now i am a full-fledged later Grape apologist--dudes, Truly Fine Citizen is a decent album--"Changes, Circles Spinning!!" is such an awesome opener!

Also, during Tower's last days I found LEGENDARY GRAPE, a later reunion record. Not bad, although the 1980's production (drums and bass mixed higher than everything else) almost ruins it, to the point where certain songs sound like a middle-aged classic-rock suburban bar band.

I still think the song "Truly Fine Citizen" is one of the most brilliant things I've ever heard, at 2 minutes...

Skip-Oar- still is one of my all time faves, but is also very un-nerving in the Syd Barrett sorta way. like listening to someone slowly come apart...

spence plays drums on The Jefferson Airplane Takes Off, and the band covered his tune his "My Best Friend" on Surrealistic Pillow, which is a great tune.

as for a grape bootleg, i've always wanted a live one but i'm not sure about ever getting to hear one.

it's sorta corny but i always loved this song, also mosley rocking a sweater vest!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGEbg_SpRsA&feature=related

I like the second album more than the first!

they ruled so hard ... I can't believe there hasn't been some sort of Columbia/Legacy archive release of them ... like we've seen from Santana/Big Bro/Byrds/ etc ... there simply has to be a hi-fi version of "Dark Magic" lurking in the vaults somewhere

how is the 1971 reunion album, 20 granite creek???

who fuckin cares about '71 .. we need that late 60s freakout shit that these guys were doing, DARK MAGIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

hey, has everyone heard about the QMS stuff that's gonna come out ???

oh shit, wait, this might just be that San Jose show that you and me and everyone else with a clue had already (-: ... i thought it might be new stuff...

http://www.voiceprint.co.uk/web/Release/BEARVP105CD/

crap .. bad link ... should've been this:

http://www.voiceprint.co.uk/web/Release/BEARVP105CD/

The CD release of "Moby Grape", "Wow" and "Grape Jam" by Sundazed (at the end of 2007?) were withdrawn at the insistance of Matthew Katz.

There are a few of the latter two knocking about GB stores, the first is long gone.

Nobody needs "Grape Jam" save for "The Lake" which is quite funny, especially for the "whatever happened to Hairy Mary?" ending. On which, hangs a tale.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHc1pJ9RMLk

dark magic is awesome

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-r6eGG6Y-zs

<3

Amazing.

I want to be Don Stevenson when I'm 74.

"Because it drives like a motherfucker, and that's where it's at."

https://img.discogs.com/nZjwifemKO1pkyFmtRJqfvLrn3g=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-12919826-1544538686-5094.jpeg.jpg

from last year

When xgau got around to reviewingLive(Sundazed, 2010) last summer, he made a point of mentioning "And everywhere there's Stevenson, reminding everyone to keep it loud and keep it moving." Sounds like qualifications for a subway busker.
Xgau hasn't written about 'em all, not yet, but good takes on these (even cherrypicks Truly Fine Citizen) http://www.robertchristgau.com/get_artist.php?name=Moby+Grape

Some more bits here, written later: https://www.robertchristgau.com/xg/rs/mobygrape-07.php
Intrigued by comment on Moby Grape '69:
...rather than hinting at country rock, it is the very beast, songwriting honorable and presentation flat. So---good source of covers, maybe enough for a whole tribute/improvement album??

sometimes i prefer 69 over s/t

if you or the flaming lips or sean lennon or w/e can improve on “i am not willing” i’d really fucking like to hear it

Not me! Or maybe the ones you mention either. Xgau's not big on country rock, unless you count some of the more rural tracks on Working Man's Dead late-60s Dylan albums, and Gram Parsons (who loathed the term). Plenty of promising young and not-so-young performers nowadays who could use a good song (not their own).

what i meant was that the MG “i am not willing” is imo a near-perfect song that would not benefit much from a reinterpretation

I had no idea Peter Lewis's mother was actually Oscar-winning Hollywood actress Loretta Young. (She was in Orson Welles's The Stranger, one of Frank Borzage's greatest films Man's Castle and won her Oscar for Best Actress in The Farmer's Daughter.) Regardless, guy's had quite a troubled life and it's pretty amazing how he overcame those struggles then went out of his way to take care of his bandmates as well.

Had no idea about that either. Wanted to tell you about a new essay about “Omaha” I heard about that I am looking forward to.

Fairly amazing 3-part interview w Peter Lewis begins here: https://www.craigmorrison.com/spip.php?article65

guy's had quite a troubled life and it's pretty amazing how he overcame those struggles then went out of his way to take care of his bandmates as well.

GREAT read. Thanks for sharing dow.

He should write a book--but considering the interviews, maybe he pretty much has? Was orig looking for the Sundazed one I saw many years ago, but so far haven't reeled it back in--so who knows what else may have gotten lost.
I thought I knew a fair amount about their saga, but omg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moby_Grape

I got word that the sundazed reissues of the first two (three?) Albums were being withdrawn, so managed to get the first and "Wow", like, immediately.

Of course, now it's the remaining ones that are the hardest to find.

Damn! At least you got that one.
Was thinking there was a Lewis interview among these, anyway quite a trove otherwise:
http://www.richieunterberger.com/sitemap.html

Yeah, it's pretty sad and crazy. This article is a great read if you want a good summary of their litigation with Matthew Katz:

https://www.loudersound.com/features/the-story-of-moby-grape-chaos-and-courtrooms-acid-and-white-witches

Here's a brief excerpt:

Some time in 2000, Lewis came face to face with Katz in court: “Katz was there, hugging me and saying that we shouldn’t have lawyers to decide everything.

I told him: ‘I don’t want to hug you, Matthew. But I’ll say this: I buried your protégé last year. I felt his hand go cold in mine. This guy died like a mouse without his cheese while you were spending his publishing money on whatever you spend your shitty money on. I want to say this on his behalf: if this whole thing was about your redemption, so that you could see that what you did to us wasn’t a cool thing, then I think he would have told you it was worthwhile. Because that’s the kind of guy Skippy was. But Matthew, go and sin no more.’ So he leaves the court, weeping. Then the next day he calls the court and tries to vacate the settlement because he didn’t think he got what he wanted!”

It feels like a case where Katz has to die before the band can finally get their catalog back in-print. I'm amazed that hasn't happened yet but Katz is hanging on well into his 90's.

It would never happen today, but I remember Skip Spence's death earning a (very brief) mention on my local morning news show.

Put some tussin on it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rVYZ4hYnt0

It feels like a case where Katz has to die before the band can finally get their catalog back in-print. I'm amazed that hasn't happened yet but Katz is hanging on well into his 90's.

Hopefully his death will enable that to happen, but Allen Klein’s been dead 13 years and the Stones still don’t have control over their ‘60s catalog.

oday Peter Lewis of the legendary Moby Grape shares “Path of Least Resistance,” the first song from his upcoming album Imagination, out June 16th.

Peter Lewis played a crucial part in the creation of that rare beast, the perfect rock & roll album: Moby Grape, a legendary union of guitars, voices and brotherhood made in a now-distant American age, the psychedelic San Francisco of 1967. While the band stands alongside Jefferson Airplane and The Grateful Dead in the eyes of knowledgeable fans and critics, the band never reached the same level of name-recognition due to an early dissolution and corrosive management. “Path of Least Resistance” is inspired by these management troubles that began in the 60’s and still hamper the band’s ownership over their success to this day.

Listen to “Path of Least Resistance”

Spotify

Apple

YouTube

magination will be released through OMAD Records, the boutique label of the album's producer John DeNicola.

“We are all beings who want to live forever but know we won’t. Although this is a predicament everyone must learn to accept, the different ways in which we spend our time trying to cope with our mortality don’t always lead to a common sympathy between us, but to conflict and profound suffering. Yet in the end all we really have in the whole wide universe is each other and that is what this CD is trying to point out” – Peter Lewis

That comes through crystal clear on Imagination, a new collection of singular songcraft that could only spring from the creative consciousness of Peter Lewis. founding member of the legendary San Francisco rock group Moby Grape. Consider the driving, chiming “Path of Least Resistance,” as radio ready as a rocker can be despite its fierce philosophizing, and “If I Just Had You,” which spins incandescent longing into perfect doo/wop. Delicate guitars and lilting, uplifting harmonies are the warm embrace of “When You Come Back to Me” while pensive piano carries the earnestly heartening “Without You.” Impossible to peg, Lewis also lets loose with a country waltz (“The Garden Song”), a flamenco-influenced tragedy (“La Mujer”) and a jazzy, trippy nightmare (“Frank Zappa’s Ghost”).

With his voice in fine fettle, Lewis serves each song—bright and delicate here, gravelly and aching there, even roaring when required—through lyrical themes that ponder mortality versus eternity, illusion versus reality. The 10-track long player is his second release on OMAD Records, a follow-up to 2019’s The Road to Zion, and it marks a deeper collaboration with John DeNicola, main man of the bespoke label. “The songs on Imagination, like those on The Road to Zion, attempt to reveal a certain perspective about life,” Lewis says. “But on The Road to Zion, this perspective was highly personal, whereas working with John on Imagination, we sought a perspective we might share with everyone.”

Soon it will be time for listeners to enter Peter Lewis’s Imagination. What insights you glean from the words, what spirit you hear in the sound, what it makes you think and feel—about dreams, doubt and deception, life, love and the everlasting—will be yours alone. All Lewis will suggest, in terms of a shared experience, is a favorite line from Lost Horizon: “‘There are moments in every man’s life when he glimpses the eternal.’ I have been searching for this glimpse all my life and my sincere wish is that anyone out there searching for it too might find hope for their journey in this record.”

Imagination

1. Just Like Sunshine

2. Without You

3. Frank Zappa’s Ghost

4. When You Come Back To Me

5. If I Just Had You

6. Imagination

7. Path Of Least Resistance

8. La Mujer

9. The Garden Song

10. Saying Goodbye

###

PRESS CONTACT:

Big Hassle Media

jim at bighassle dot com

Did I get the memo about this 2019 release? (Probably, and forgot about it)(just checked, not seeing any email about it):

his second release on OMAD Records, a follow-up to 2019’s The Road to Zion, and it marks a deeper collaboration with John DeNicola, main man of the bespoke label. “The songs on Imagination, like those on The Road to Zion, attempt to reveal a certain perspective about life,” Lewis says. “But on The Road to Zion, this perspective was highly personal, whereas working with John on Imagination, we sought a perspective we might share with everyone.”

Been listening to Moby Grape quite a bit recently and Peter Lewis was the most consistent songwriter in the band, he has good songs on every album (and never wrote anything as bad as "Funky-Tunk" for instance).

'69 is OK. it reminds me of post-Forever Changes Love in a "Let's forget all that psychedelic nonsense and get back to playing some rock and roll" way but then the best track on it is a psychedelic era Skip Spence song.

"Truly Fine Citizen" is the very definition of a contractual obligation album. Peter Lewis - who didn't even want to do the album - tries his best but the Miller/ Stevenson writing team is pretty much bereft of inspiration. It was recorded in three days and sounds like it, honestly stand-in bass player Bob Moore (R. Stevie's dad!) sounds like he's just hearing the songs for the first time. I think the boring covers of the post-Skip albums don't really help either.

I love "Changes, Circles Spinning" off Truly Fine Citizen, but I agree the rest is pretty forgettable.

I still want to hear 20 Granite Creek and the 2010 Live on Sundazed, having read some very appealing takes from gen. reliable sources. Also that Ducks alb where Bob Mosley turns up (along with Neil Young etc.)

Truly Fine Citizen isn't great, but goddamn what an incredible cover

I have Bob Mosley's solo record from '72 on vinyl (often used to be in delete bins). Don't remember a thing about it.

Matthew Katz, notoriously one of the most reprehensible and grossly dishonest managers in rock history, finally died at the age of 93 back on September 30th after spending much of his adult life destroying this band, taking every cent they earned and nearly litigating their back catalogue out of existence save for the shitty reissues he’d try to put out and the temporary workarounds Bob Irwin and Sony have come up with over the years (see “Vintage: The Very Best of Moby Grape.”

Ugh.

Seem to recall somebody…the Airplane, maybe?… advised them to stay away from him early on.

All the sordid details can be found here:

https://www.loudersound.com/features/the-story-of-moby-grape-chaos-and-courtrooms-acid-and-white-witches

Thanks. Once it’s in my head might just as well go back and (re)read all the gory details.

Can’t remember if I mentioned Susan Schmidt Hornung’s recent piece about “Omaha” upthread.

Not surprised this wasn't reported, who was going to mourn this horrible prick?

I don’t…but it could make their catalog, particularly their debut, available in complete and proper form again. (You can’t even stream the debut in its entirety on Apple Music.)

Would love it if Sundazed brought back their reissues - they were immediately pulled due to Katz’s litigation though pre-orders and other copies got out. That was the last attempt to properly release them in physical form.

I could have sworn we had discussed him already dying recently but it guess was just lots of posts on the surprised at still alive thread.

Yes, I think he was mentioned fairly recently, possibly musing on why horrors like him and Kissinger are still alive... oh hold on...

xpost yeah, I got the debut CD just ahead of HMV having to pull them out of stores.

I have a 90s vinyl reissue of the debut bought in FOPP in the west end of Glasgow before they expanded UK wide. Man, that was a great shop.

Vintage was great, but suffers a bit (particularly in regards to the debut) from including all the studio chat and false starts on the individual songs themselves instead of indexing them separately or putting them in the between track countdowns.

Yes, not sure I agree with some of the choices on which songs to include (or exclude) either.

including all the studio chat and false starts

True, although I wonder if this was part of a subterfuge to create new masters that weren't under Katz's ownership.

which songs to include (or exclude)

I haven't heard any other songs from the records proper, I'd like to know your choices. I could live without some of the Bob Mosley stuff that made it on Vintage

Finally listened to 20 Granite Creek, and first impression yow what a Saturday night! 1971, all five singing, playing, writing, rowdy and sharp and even more variety than primo The Band, without getting too fancy about it. Something barroom and outdoors about it, Cali all thee way--title and cover art provide that '71 roots touch, music not too much: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fA4FtjnmoV4

i think i like learning about, and talking about, this band more than i actually like listening to them.

even though i do really enjoy listening to them sometimes.

I go through a couple days a year listening to those San Francisco bands. I will put together a play list loading up an album or two from a few bands then sort them around and give them a listen.

If you go from short songs to long songs, the Moby Grape stuff gets played and done pretty quick.

I got the first one on LP. The record has been played to death, but it is cool to look at the cover.

Mind you the LP was toasted long before I ever got it. Got a feeling a few joints were rolled off it in its heyday.

And I have had the LP over 30 years now…