TS - "They Don't Know": Kirsty MacColl vs. Tracey Ullman

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Inspired by the mention of Tracey Ullman's version in a recent thread, I dug out copies of both and played them a couple times back to back. Each has its own set of qualities, but I think Ullman's version wins out for its Spector-ish wall of sound and Tracey's sweeter, less raspy vocal delivery.

― paul cox (paul cox), Sunday, 16 February 2003 06:27 (twenty-three years ago)

Attempts at swaying my opinion are welcome.

― paul cox (paul cox), Sunday, 16 February 2003 06:27 (twenty-three years ago)

Kirsty MacColl. Her record is the greatest girl-group update I know, partly because it's done with the slightest bit of condescension even while it strips the arrangement down to something more New Wave-specific. The emotionalism of the song is straight out of The Crystals, as you suggest. But the Ullmann version tips it a little bit into pastiche/kitsch, which I don't appreciate although her version is good too.

There was a week at work a few months ago where I played this song over, and over, and over, and over again--every day. The girl who sits in the next cubicle over had kind words for it, and never seemed to complain.

This song is very close to my heart.

― Amateurist (amateurist), Sunday, 16 February 2003 06:51 (twenty-three years ago)

P.S. Does anyone have a copy of Kirsty's Galore CD that they could burn for me? (You can email me about it.)

― Amateurist (amateurist), Sunday, 16 February 2003 06:53 (twenty-three years ago)

"done without the slightest bit of condescension."

I fully expect to wake up tomorrow and be appalled by the errors in my 1 AM posts.

― Amateurist (amateurist), Sunday, 16 February 2003 06:56 (twenty-three years ago)

I've only heard the Tracey version. Shame on me, I know. How does Kirsty's "Baby!" compare to Tracey's?

I'm pretty much sure my best friend has a copy of Galore, Amateurist, I'll try and burn a copy for us both. I'll find out tomorrow.

― Arthur (Arthur), Sunday, 16 February 2003 07:37 (twenty-three years ago)

Yay!

― Amateurist (amateurist), Sunday, 16 February 2003 07:48 (twenty-three years ago)

I acutally like Tracey Ullman's version (which introduced me to the song); it's one of the few things I like that she's done, period.

Still, ultimately, gotta go with Kirsty MacColl's version, because she wrote it and I like her more as a personality (or, at least she never subjected us to any "Kirsty Takes On..." shows). Plus, you can't beat those harmonies she gets in that song.

― Joe (Joe), Sunday, 16 February 2003 20:15 (twenty-three years ago)

Galore, is mighty fine. It sucks that she's gone.

― Joe (Joe), Sunday, 16 February 2003 20:18 (twenty-three years ago)

Tracey's version is really charming. The bells, the "baby," the harmonies. Adorable and devastating. The video's nice too. I've heard Kirsty's version, but I can't remember the specifics offhand.

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Sunday, 16 February 2003 20:27 (twenty-three years ago)

I have Galore. Think I'll dig that out tonight.

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Sunday, 16 February 2003 20:28 (twenty-three years ago)

Also Kirsty's "Bay-ay-bee" beats all.

― Amateurist (amateurist), Sunday, 16 February 2003 20:46 (twenty-three years ago)

Also Kirsty's verses are sung completely on the beat which makes the few moments where she's off that much more effective. It's kind of a DIY girl-group thing (renders the Talulah Gosh catalogue redundant).

― Amateurist (amateurist), Sunday, 16 February 2003 20:50 (twenty-three years ago)

MacColl's is great - as is a lot of her other work. But Ullmann's is probably great too. Long time since I heard that.

I do have an Ullmann PICTURE DISC 45 WITH NEIL KINNOCK ON IT

― the pinefox, Sunday, 16 February 2003 21:12 (twenty-three years ago)

According to AMG, it's actually Kirsty's "Bay-ay-bee" that appears in Ullman's version as well. The earliest occurance on mainstream sampling?

― paul cox (paul cox), Sunday, 16 February 2003 22:11 (twenty-three years ago)

Didn't Kirsty MacColl do the backing vocals on the Tracy Ullman version?

― rosemary (rosemary), Monday, 17 February 2003 00:09 (twenty-three years ago)

It turns out they're the same recording.

― N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 17 February 2003 02:31 (twenty-three years ago)

It's a different "bay-bee" but it might be by the same person.

This is one of Isabel's favourite records and she much prefers the Ullman version. I prefer it too but it's a close thing - the TU version is celebratory and defiant, which I like, whereas the KM version seems more defensive, which I can sympathise with too. I've nothing against pastiche so Tracey wins.

― Tom (Groke), Monday, 17 February 2003 10:48 (twenty-three years ago)

I've just listened to the Tracy Ullman version for the first time in the words. It's actually remarkably similar to Kirsty's version; just a higher-gloss production, those backing vocals in the chorus.... And definitely a different "Baby!"

But otherwise it's nearly a carbon copy. The same guitar solo, even! But Tom's right, if there's a difference, Tracy's version is a bit more ... petulant.

I like Kirsty's vocal better, so I haven't changed my vote.

― Amateurist (amateurist), Monday, 17 February 2003 17:17 (twenty-three years ago)

Kirsty's version is great. There's also a fine Young Fresh Fellows version on their "A Tribute to Music" LP of a few years back. More rock, a bit less pop, worth a listen, as always.

― pauls00, Tuesday, 18 February 2003 13:05 (twenty-three years ago)

Kirsty by miles and miles.
It's still hard to believe she's gone- tragic waste.

― russ t, Tuesday, 18 February 2003 13:11 (twenty-three years ago)

As far as I know, that's Kirsty's "bay-ay-be-ee" on Tracey's version - something to do with Tracey not being able to quite hit the high notes. I have played them side by side and they sound the same to me. And some of the regular backing vocals are definitely Kirsty's in there.

I like both versions - but Tracey's wins for me. Bigger, brighter, poppier. Tracey is for Saturday nights, Kirsty is for Sunday mornings.

― elisabeth k, Tuesday, 18 February 2003 15:45 (twenty-three years ago)

OK, I realize why I like Kirsty's better. I was trying to explain it upthread but failing. Listen to the verses. Her phrasing is so resolutely foursquare. It suggests a naivete, a sincerity. Reminds me of the Shangri-Las, where a "dumb" vocal betrays incredible depths of emotion. (The drum fills serve a similar purpose.)

I actually get the feeling Kirsty wasn't so great an interpretive singer; my faves are the songs where she doesn't try so hard to interpret. Like this one, and "Terry," and "He's on the Beach." Oh, how I could sing the praises of that last one. Sigh.

― Amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 20 February 2003 05:40 (twenty-three years ago)

The drum fills serve a similar purpose

Do they sound like rape?

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Thursday, 20 February 2003 05:58 (twenty-three years ago)

Marcello is never going to live that down.

― Amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 20 February 2003 06:02 (twenty-three years ago)

(Sorry I'm bored and I couldn't help myself)

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Thursday, 20 February 2003 06:11 (twenty-three years ago)

one year passes...

sigh

― amateur!!!st (amateurist), Sunday, 26 September 2004 06:05 (twenty-one years ago)

sigh?

(btw, I'm sure everyone has started particular threads they're happy resulted in good conversation. this is one of mine.)

― Johnny Fever (johnny fever), Sunday, 26 September 2004 06:23 (twenty-one years ago)

sigh = they don't know and he's on the beach are so sad and lovely

sigh = RIP kirsty

― amateur!!!st (amateurist), Sunday, 26 September 2004 06:25 (twenty-one years ago)

I also like the whispery Departure Lounge version.

And Tracey's is great, and it sure sounded good on the radio back when it was on the radio. (in a world that includes '80s oldies stations, why isn't this on all the time?)

But Kirsty's is the one and true, because it has that edge of she's-gonna-kick-your-ass that Kirsty always had -- less moony than Tracey's, more fuck-those-assholes. Great song.

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Sunday, 26 September 2004 06:29 (twenty-one years ago)

well said, gypsy.

― Cripps Pink (Jody Beth Rosen), Sunday, 26 September 2004 06:44 (twenty-one years ago)

[i]sigh = RIP kirsty[/i]

I was playing [i]Galore[/i] about a month ago, while doing some yardwork. Saw her back in '95 at the Theatre of Living Arts in Philadelphia. She was such a charming performer, that night was a lot of fun. It still hurts deeply that she's no longer here.

― Joe (Joe), Sunday, 26 September 2004 13:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Ack! Sorry for the brackets (formatting for a different forum).

― Joe (Joe), Sunday, 26 September 2004 13:57 (twenty-one years ago)

sigh.

― cºzen (Cozen), Sunday, 26 September 2004 14:24 (twenty-one years ago)

one year passes...

the tracey version is one of my all time favourites, but i've never heard the original one (or the young fresh fellows). i hate to ask for these things, (esp in the recent ilm request ridden cimate) but would anyone be so kind as to share?

― Kim (Kim), Saturday, 4 March 2006 19:55 (twenty years ago)

http://s25.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1F1CPNXX7IBQ51XXZOSL3W0ZJ2

― Throw Your Foot (Bimble...), Saturday, 4 March 2006 21:50 (twenty years ago)

thanks! that's great.

― Kim (Kim), Saturday, 4 March 2006 21:57 (twenty years ago)

Kirsty MacColl wins because her version was the first. I sort of enjoy the fuller production on Tracey Ullman's version too though (plus nostalgic points apply as her version is the only one of the two that I remember being a hit)

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Saturday, 4 March 2006 22:45 (twenty years ago)

five months pass...

I've never heard the MacColl version but I can't imagine it being quite as glorious as Ullman's. Never the less I will endeavour to hear it...soon.

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Monday, 21 August 2006 14:44 (nineteen years ago)

it's been said a couple times upthread, but i'm not sure everyone's quite got it -- they are in the fact the same recording. the only thing that's different is the vocal track. i heard tracey's first, and it's one of all-time favorite 45s, but i love 'em both.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Monday, 21 August 2006 14:58 (nineteen years ago)

So it's kind of like that live version of "Heart of the City" that was on Jesus of Cool with a Nick Lowe vocal and Tracks on Wax 4 with a Dave Edmunds vocal?

― My Little Ruud Book (Ken L), Monday, 21 August 2006 15:04 (nineteen years ago)

Tracey is for Saturday nights, Kirsty is for Sunday mornings.

Very OTM.

they are in the fact the same recording. the only thing that's different is the vocal track.

Were there any, I dunno, postproduction/strings added/embellishments on Tracey's version? Everyone on this thread (incl. me) remembers Tracey's version as brighter, fuller, and bolder.

― NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Monday, 21 August 2006 15:26 (nineteen years ago)

Bells, for one.

― mark grout (mark grout), Monday, 21 August 2006 15:33 (nineteen years ago)

A
B

― a.b. (alanbanana), Monday, 21 August 2006 15:44 (nineteen years ago)

naughty

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Monday, 21 August 2006 16:00 (nineteen years ago)

It's very obviously NOT the same recording, fact checking cuz.

― Johnny Fever (johnny fever), Monday, 21 August 2006 16:17 (nineteen years ago)

-- Geir Hongro (geirhon...), March 4th, 2006.

...and not one mention of McCartney being in Ullman's video for this.

― Sir Dr. Rev. PappaWheelie Jr. II of The Third Kind (PappaWheelie 2), Monday, 21 August 2006 16:29 (nineteen years ago)

Ullmann's. She had an ear for trash that MacColl lacked, and that song cried out for a trashy execution. MacColl was too much the aesthete to hit it that way.

That's where I draw the line, though; Ullmann's "Break-a-way" fairly shrivels in the face of Carla Thomas's.

― Dan Heilman (The Deacon), Monday, 21 August 2006 18:09 (nineteen years ago)

Xpost: Geir's not really on form today, unless his reference to 'The Cure's "Parklife"' earlier was some sort of joke.

― Scourage (Haberdager), Monday, 21 August 2006 18:12 (nineteen years ago)

[i]Ullmann's "Break-a-way" fairly shrivels in the face of Carla Thomas's.[/i]

Doy, I mean Irma Thomas's.

― Dan Heilman (The Deacon), Monday, 21 August 2006 18:33 (nineteen years ago)

Ullmann's "Break-a-way" fairly shrivels in the face of Carla Thomas's.

same for Rachel Sweet's cover of Carla Thomas's B-A-B-Y.

it was like they were defining the Stiff in Stiff Records...

― Sir Dr. Rev. PappaWheelie Jr. II of The Third Kind (PappaWheelie 2), Monday, 21 August 2006 18:40 (nineteen years ago)

It's very obviously NOT the same recording

It's plainly the original vox (or at least a new Kirsty take) being used as the guide/backing vocal and BAY-bee though, which is where that notion comes from

― kit brash (kit brash), Tuesday, 22 August 2006 10:06 (nineteen years ago)

I really hate the "Baby!" bit.

― tokyo nursery school: afternoon session (rosemary), Tuesday, 22 August 2006 11:57 (nineteen years ago)

that gives me an idea for a thread.

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Tuesday, 22 August 2006 12:12 (nineteen years ago)

Kirsty MacColl was the first, and possibly only, artist I ever got truly, unreasonably obsessed with, and my one and only psycho-fan moment. I got over it, but I still love her music.

That said, Tracy's version of this. The added sugar works here - it is all the more touching for being sung sweetly, and happily. I agree with the commend upthread that Kirsty's delivery was defensive.

Now, if we're comparing it to "Don't come the cowboy with me, Sonny Jim" that's a different story.

― hobart paving (hobart paving), Tuesday, 22 August 2006 20:05 (nineteen years ago)

nine years pass...

Rabidly obsessed with this song ATM.

― hardcore dilettante, Tuesday, 29 September 2015 00:30 (ten years ago)

as of 2015, this has entered my hypothetical all time top 100.

― billstevejim, Tuesday, 29 September 2015 00:44 (ten years ago)

Re: discussion upthread, "MacColl performed backing vocals on Ullman's version and reprised her original "bay-ay-be-ee" in the middle of the song. " (citation needed tho)

Something of a similar 80s bittersweet feel in Thinking of You by The Colourfield - ok Terry Hall doesn't remotely sound like The Crystals but the backing singer sounds just like MacColl.

― steppenwolf in white van speaker scam (ledge), Tuesday, 29 September 2015 11:37 (ten years ago)

What a bizarre conversation about these being the same backing track or using the original vocal as a guide...weird. Kirsty worked on the album, also wrote the title track (which has a very KC lyric) and even gets a production credit.

Didn't know the Young Fresh Fellows recorded this but a few years ago I saw Scott McCaughey doing a solo version of this song and he really nailed it. Should really be a standard for buskers this song.

― everything, Tuesday, 29 September 2015 12:03 (ten years ago)

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