Christgau dissing Solomon

I thought this part was a piece of unparsable Xgau, as so many have complained about here, but then I realized the "?" means ", ".

and I am a big fan of Solomon.

And while I think R.C. is overstating his case a bit, I've heard the record--the big fat fuck has lost his voice, pretty much, certainly compared to his classic Atlantic material like "Someone is Watching." I still like the record, though; Solomon has a lot of presence. I would've given it like a B+.

Where is Howard Tate, who I think is just as good as Burke? He's supposedly making a record with Jerry Ragovoy. Will Tate be able to attract a lot of big-name songwriters?

I wouldn't. but its not really much of a comparison is it?

grading recs suXor

No-one should be forced to sing 'Hi Ho Silver Lining' though. That was pretty grim.

its not that bad! you just have to get used to drawing your curly arrows.

can you give an example of this? I really don't recall this being the case

and Christgau's as predictable as anybody, really; I was waiting for something like this to show up in the CG. (I'm also w/Miccio re: not hearing it but having deep suspicions....)

I think he likes "Hanging Tree" on QOTSA's Songs For... because its the most blatantly Lanegan.

His recent raves of S-K and Mekons's tired 9/11 stuff was pretty much based on his approval of the artists, not the actual stuff on the disc.

Though he changed his tune on Nerd, I think he did that because he already DECIDED Timberlake's album was great before he heard it, and since Timberlake's was basically a Neptunes album, he had think fast (my comments actually called him on this hypocrisy...my ego even wants me to think he hadn't realized the contradiction but that's probably just a fantasy). I still say "Justified" doesn't remotely fufill the promise of "Celebrity."

Where's the evidence of this, Anthony? Jeez. If Bob had liked Justin's album and had never come around to NERD's album (which isn't as good anyway), how exactly would that've been a contradiction? One Neptunes album being good doesn't mean ALL Neptunes albums are good, does it? And Bob is RIGHT about *Justified*, which IS much better than *Celebrity,* which wasn't even all that great. And while you're welcome to disagree if you hear those albums differently, it's ridiculous to assume that anybody who disagrees with YOU is lying...

On the other hand, the fact that BOB DYLAN had long lost HIS legendary voice apparently hasn't bothered Christgau lately, so...

"Better Solomon Burke than Norah Jones/Diana Krall" is the most laughably kneejerk thing I've ever read EVAH

To use Chuck-speak. Most of the Transplants is only good if you've got a Jeep, a Clash fetish and a crack pipe.

Justified is great. (Not directed at you, Chuck).

Weird thing to say about a band whose biggest talent (just like Rancid's) is pretty melodies. Guess whitebread powerpop-pogo addict Anthony's upset that the Transplants do something more with those melodies than just make them jump up and down in place. But some of us LIKE music that dances, you know? Some of us actually hear MUSIC in rhythms not rooted in Liverpool. I honestly have no problem with somebody thinking the top ten CDs last year went Desaparacidos/Good Charlotte/ Distillers/Donnas/ Weezer/Rocket From the Crypt/Kelly Osbourne/ Wilco/All-American Rejects/Local H. But if that person is going to see "hypocrisy" in everyone whose tastes are a little less, uh, limited, that person should really just fuck off, you know?

Meanwhile I'm struck by your dis of Sleater-Kinney and the Mekons as "tired" since whatever else they are, the albums are fairly distinct in the body of work of each band.

How the FUCK is something like "Cry Me a River" even slightly that way? Sorry, but I draw the line here.

Uh, I've only heard "Cry Me a River" so perhaps you should take this with a grain of salt, but isn't the really obvious difference between the N*E*R*D and Timberlake albums all about vocals?

Pop-punk is my fall-back sound, duh, and unlike some of y'all I don't get albums for free! So I hesitate to pick up filler-filled great singles and more (though interestingly I BOUGHT Justin Timberlake and the Transplants! Because I thought they'd have good beats! And my problem with them is in the singers more so than the grooves, though the non-singles beats don't make up for the singers on side 2 for either album).

Well aware my top ten was monochromatic sonically, but rather than lie and pretend I heard some great dance/rap ALBUMS (which undoubtedly I would have if I got them for free or had kazaa or whatever), I decided to pick ten albums I can wholeheartedly endorse, even if they don't play up ECLECTICISM (I probably would take off Weezer and add Queens Of The Stone Age now). Had no idea that would be held against me.

By the way, I wish you had put up my singles list too, Vines/P.O.D./X-ecutioners/Shakira/Hives/Cornershop/Enrique Iglesias/Avril Lavigne/Mirah/Interpol. But then you wouldn't have had an easy laugh at my lack-of-promo/admitted pop-punk enthusiast expense, would ya?

Mekons and S-K do indeed sound different than usual. Mekons never sounded like a shell-shocked, barely-in-tune gospel choir (I'll take "Old Trip To Jerusalem" and "Only You And Your Ghost Will Know" and otherwise listen to their '85-'91 stuff). Sleater-Kinney never sounded so plodding and smug (I'll take "Oh!" and "Step Aside" and otherwise listen to the '96-'99 stuff). They SOUND tired, even they are indeed trying new (and personally, not improved, things).

(it's definitely time for the neptunes to disappear for a bit tho: this morning on mtv's direct effect i saw three consecutive videos prominently featuring pharrell in croon-mode -- the clipse's "ma i don't love her" (which is wonderful), the new snoop song (which i really dug) and the new jay-z (eh). just overkill.)

This is sorta weird coming from you, Anthony, you've already struck me as a populist in general.

Jess, I don't mind if you dance with our dates.

People on ILM are such literalists these days that I can hardly make crypto-eliptical obsucratist jibes without getting called on it.

What is the world coming to?

***

you're asking me as a listener to care more about the artist's intent than my own reactions and preferences

To each his own is possibly a good standard to apply here, but what bothers me most is that your posts re. this subject are frequently quite glib and dismissive of those who would pay any attention to lyrics.

Besides I'm telling you that you ARE MISSING A LARGE CHUNK OF THE POINT.

****

(puts on glasses, turns on projector)

What we have witnessed on this thread is my exploding and succumbing to the urge to become as glib and dismissive as I wanna. Just one of the possible deletrious effects of sleep deprivation.

(like i'm one to talk, tho)

(whoa fuck I think we just hit an iceberg)

Which is fair. Anthony in particular has talked about it a number of times, and I'm hardly saying I'm always arguing my corner well. At heart I'm not saying 'change yer ways,' though that subtext isn't always apparent. I'm just saying that what will work for you will not necessarily work for me or anyone else. Complaining about missing 'a large chunk of the point' misses out the fact that I might well have seen this point at one time but don't find it relevant or interesting to the way I listen to music anymore.

There was one time many years back when I absolutely had to read along to the lyrics every time I got a new album. Those days are long, long gone. Lyrics simply don't matter to me as much as the rush of sound does. For more, read here -- I can talk about this in detail, you see. ;-)

sterl, obv rhyming lyrics are better than gibberlandish or whatever it is sigur ros are peddlin

I don't understand the truck with Ned's lyrics-as-sound position: it's surely just an extension of Adorno's "don't listen to what he's saying, listen to the grain of the voice" argument. Which is a bit more complex than that: the song cannot be divided up into its constituent parts because it reifies itself. Maybe reify is the wrong word because it implies consciousness/unconsciousness in the coagulation: so maybe it should be, the song cannot be divided up into its constituent parts because of the value of integrity.

Also, words are but interesting wind.

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Cozen, I just hate when a thread reads like:

ILXer: "Oh, but the lyrics are interesting. (Cites example.)"
Ned: "Lyrics schmyrics."

(And also, I don't believe jess dislikes Ned: just that he's shaking him awake, because he does have interesting things to say, but sometimes defaults too readily to glib. I should never post when drunk.)

(Yeh, Amateurist, I know, see this post).

-- Anthony Miccio<<<

Otis Day and the Nights are too funky for Anthony anyway.

what WHAT do I have to do to lose this undeserved rep?

(nb: i have no idea why i just did that)

http://www.limpbizkit.com/uploaded_media/Fred%20in%20Afro%20hat%201.jpg

I actually find it almost impossible trying to pick the lyrics that are being sung as well as listening to music so I learned to listen to how the 'grain' of the voice integrates with instrumental sound.

adorno's book on wagner offers some nice analysis of texts that he uses in his operas, for instance. its not a dead end.

Yeah but the "Listen to the LYRICS" guy is a straw man here, we're generally more sophisticated than that--or so I'd like to believe.

It's 10,000 leagues from being a good example of this sort of thing or even from coherence, but my posts on "Do You Know the Way from San Jose" are sort of groping to explain how lyrics and music work in tandem to create meaning.

whenever I've read speculation as to what the lyrics might mean it can sounf far fetched.

I'm applying this to rock music more than rap (or folk) as the latter is more 'word' based.

(Is/was there undie doo-wop?)

Is/was there undie doo-wop?

Dear god, I hope not. That would sound like ass.

*goes, humming the andrews sistas' tune, t'pour rum & coca cola f'himself*

Cozen, I just hate when a thread reads like:

ILXer: "Oh, but the lyrics are interesting. (Cites example.)"
Ned: "Lyrics schmyrics."

And yes I'm guilty of that. For now, I will always see lyrics as secondary and I outlined why in my essay. If I have to restate and/or repost said essay every time I say anything on the subject, then I have a feeling there would be more complaints; instead I'm dealing in a (quite often glib) shorthand. If lyrics add something to an appreciation of the song for someone, that's certainly wonderful. But arguing that I should like a song because of them will drive me batty every time. Songs should be enjoyed because they sound good! This may well be my idee fixe, I agree.

Yeah but the "Listen to the LYRICS" guy is a straw man here, we're generally more sophisticated than that--or so I'd like to believe.

I don't know...the 'state of hip-hop' thread was a bit telling, and a lot of people were having a LOT of arguments over the importance of lyrics, and some of the arguments and conclusions were more than a little strawman like. But quite a few were not and more than a few were utterly impassioned and quite well-informed, but often very much focused on the words in-and-of themselves. Sterling's take on Common, f'r instance, which was a brilliant dissection of the lyrics but said nothing about the music. I could take the time to go over god knows how many songs whose lyrics I could take apart (pro and con) which I love unreservedly because they sound great. But they're simply not a matter of interest to me in the end in that depth and detail, at least on anything resembling a regular basis.

If that frustrates, that frustrates, and I'm sorry for that, but your own response isn't frustrating me in turn. A multiplicity of approaches exists, and everyone's own individual approach is obviously what's going to work best for him or herself, otherwise why maintain or change it?

my posts on "Do You Know the Way from San Jose" are sort of groping to explain how lyrics and music work in tandem to create meaning

Which is great, I'd like to read that. But I'm sure you're not saying they'll create meaning for everyone. If anything, that's really ALL I'm trying to say with my own stance -- meaning is where we all find it, individually, within certain contexts, and I have my own particular take.

My post all been poorly argued from where I sit, probably because I feel a bit out of it (I'm getting over some sort of bug or something that's left me feeling a bit bleh). But I hope it says something!

V